StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Honestly, I can't even remember the specific cases anymore. I stopped paying attention to the FAQ so long ago. Also, I've tried with some minimal effort to purposely "unlearn" the things I read.
Basically.
What do you think of the faq?
- Thread starter radmod
- Start date
Honestly, I can't even remember the specific cases anymore. I stopped paying attention to the FAQ so long ago. Also, I've tried with some minimal effort to purposely "unlearn" the things I read.
Basically.
Honestly, I can't even remember the specific cases anymore. I stopped paying attention to the FAQ so long ago. Also, I've tried with some minimal effort to purposely "unlearn" the things I read.
In that case, I encourage you to go back and re-read it. The FAQ has been updated many times over the years, and you may find it much improved.
I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that it's worthless for the FAQ to try and answer rules questions that have ambiguous answers? If so, why?
Well, what I meant was that if one feels that a given answer was, or several were, worthless then it tends to corrupt one's mind into believing that many of the answers are worthless. It's like customer service, a person can get good service a dozen times but get bad service once or twice and the person is less likely to go back. It simply sours their view.
I view the FAQ as a piece of documentation to use.
I always try to get supportive evidence for a ruling when I can.
My order of significance is:
Rules Compendium
PHB/DMG/MM (depending on the subject)
Other "official" books (using last published as most significant.
FAQ
I have over time found that the FAQ (and Sage Advice columns from which it was taken) to be correct more times than not. I also have found that the Sage (specifically Skip when he was it) would correct themselves if they found that they were in error and would say when what advice he gave was "opinion" rather than RAW.
I always try to get supportive evidence for a ruling when I can.
My order of significance is:
Rules Compendium
PHB/DMG/MM (depending on the subject)
Other "official" books (using last published as most significant.
FAQ
I have over time found that the FAQ (and Sage Advice columns from which it was taken) to be correct more times than not. I also have found that the Sage (specifically Skip when he was it) would correct themselves if they found that they were in error and would say when what advice he gave was "opinion" rather than RAW.
frankthedm
First Post
FAQ is supposed to be interpretation of the rules, not changing of the rules. That is what errata is for. FAQ has no business making judicial legislation as it has done often.
I'd say the Bob and Grog debacle is a fine example of FAQing brilliance that completely ignored rules already in place.
In a combat, Bob the fighter is unconscious from
wounds, and Grog the orc moves into Bob’s square. A
friendly cleric heals Bob so that Bob regains consciousness.
So the orc and prone Bob are now occupying the same
square. Now what happens? The rules say that Bob and
Grog can’t be in the same square, right? So, what happens?
Is Grog somehow prevented from entering Bob’s square?
Does Grog have to leave when Bob wakes up?
You can enter another creature’s square and even stop there
if the creature is helpless, or if that creature is much bigger or
smaller than you are (see Moving Through a Square in Chapter
8 of the PH).
Assume that Bob is prone (no rule says you’re prone when
you lose consciousness, but common sense demands that it be
so), and that he can remain in Grog’s square so long as he
remains prone. If he gets up, he must leave Grog’s square first,
which provokes an attack of opportunity from Grog.
Earlier, you talked about Bob the fighter, who was
unconscious and later woke up, prone, to find Grog the orc
standing in his space. You said Bob has to stay prone so
long as he remained in Grog’s space, and that Bob would
D&D FAQ v.3.5 74 Update Version: 6/30/08
provoke an attack of opportunity upon leaving that space.
Suppose Bob made a grapple attack on Grog? He can
grapple Grog, can’t he? Bob would be at a negative for
being prone but would not provoke an attack of
opportunity, would he? Assuming Bob establishes a hold on
Grog, how long does the prone penalty last?
Sure, Bob can grapple Grog. Bob’s initial grab attack
provokes an attack of opportunity from Grog unless Bob has
the Improved Grapple feat or some other circumstance prevents
Grog from threatening Bob. (For example, Grog would not
threaten Bob if Grog were wielding a reach weapon.) If Grog
deals damage to Bob with an attack of opportunity, Bob’s
grapple attempt is over.
If Grog doesn’t damage Bob, Bob’s initial touch attack
would suffer a –4 penalty for being prone. If the grab succeeds,
Bob is still prone and still suffers the –4 penalty for being
prone for the ensuing opposed grapple check. (Some DMs I
know would give Bob an offsetting bonus wrapping himself
around Grog’s ankles, but I don’t recommend doing so; it’s
pretty easy to kick loose from somebody lying on the ground
when you’re standing up).
If Bob gets a hold on Grog, he normally would have to
move into Grog’s space to maintain the hold. This movement
would provoke attacks of opportunity from foes that threaten
Bob. However, Bob is in Grog’s space already, so he doesn’t
have to move to maintain the hold, and he is spared attacks of
opportunity from Grog’s allies.
You can move when grappling (see page 156 in the PH).
Normally you drag foes along with you when you move during
grappling, but there’s no reason why Bob can’t just use a move
action to stand up in Grog’s space once he has hold of Grog.
Bob has to win an opposed grapple check against Grog (still at
–4 for being prone) to stand up. This doesn’t provoke an attack
of opportunity from Grog (who doesn’t threaten Bob or anyone
else while grappling), but it does from Grog’s allies if they
threaten Bob (see page 143 in the PH). Once on his feet, Bob
can keep grappling without the prone penalty, or just let Grog
go. If Bob lets go, he can leave Grog’s space with a 5-foot step
and not provoke any attacks of opportunity. (Getting up is a
move action, but it’s not “movement” for purposes of taking a
5-foot step because Bob isn’t actually moving any distance, see
page 144 in the PH).
All of which is worthless since the PHB already had rules precedence for winding up in an illegal space.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
Simply saying "Healed and prone, Bob's mini is placed in the nearest {Random} legal space." would have fit rules precedence and saved space and saved face for the FAQ.
I'd say the Bob and Grog debacle is a fine example of FAQing brilliance that completely ignored rules already in place.
In a combat, Bob the fighter is unconscious from
wounds, and Grog the orc moves into Bob’s square. A
friendly cleric heals Bob so that Bob regains consciousness.
So the orc and prone Bob are now occupying the same
square. Now what happens? The rules say that Bob and
Grog can’t be in the same square, right? So, what happens?
Is Grog somehow prevented from entering Bob’s square?
Does Grog have to leave when Bob wakes up?
You can enter another creature’s square and even stop there
if the creature is helpless, or if that creature is much bigger or
smaller than you are (see Moving Through a Square in Chapter
8 of the PH).
Assume that Bob is prone (no rule says you’re prone when
you lose consciousness, but common sense demands that it be
so), and that he can remain in Grog’s square so long as he
remains prone. If he gets up, he must leave Grog’s square first,
which provokes an attack of opportunity from Grog.
Earlier, you talked about Bob the fighter, who was
unconscious and later woke up, prone, to find Grog the orc
standing in his space. You said Bob has to stay prone so
long as he remained in Grog’s space, and that Bob would
D&D FAQ v.3.5 74 Update Version: 6/30/08
provoke an attack of opportunity upon leaving that space.
Suppose Bob made a grapple attack on Grog? He can
grapple Grog, can’t he? Bob would be at a negative for
being prone but would not provoke an attack of
opportunity, would he? Assuming Bob establishes a hold on
Grog, how long does the prone penalty last?
Sure, Bob can grapple Grog. Bob’s initial grab attack
provokes an attack of opportunity from Grog unless Bob has
the Improved Grapple feat or some other circumstance prevents
Grog from threatening Bob. (For example, Grog would not
threaten Bob if Grog were wielding a reach weapon.) If Grog
deals damage to Bob with an attack of opportunity, Bob’s
grapple attempt is over.
If Grog doesn’t damage Bob, Bob’s initial touch attack
would suffer a –4 penalty for being prone. If the grab succeeds,
Bob is still prone and still suffers the –4 penalty for being
prone for the ensuing opposed grapple check. (Some DMs I
know would give Bob an offsetting bonus wrapping himself
around Grog’s ankles, but I don’t recommend doing so; it’s
pretty easy to kick loose from somebody lying on the ground
when you’re standing up).
If Bob gets a hold on Grog, he normally would have to
move into Grog’s space to maintain the hold. This movement
would provoke attacks of opportunity from foes that threaten
Bob. However, Bob is in Grog’s space already, so he doesn’t
have to move to maintain the hold, and he is spared attacks of
opportunity from Grog’s allies.
You can move when grappling (see page 156 in the PH).
Normally you drag foes along with you when you move during
grappling, but there’s no reason why Bob can’t just use a move
action to stand up in Grog’s space once he has hold of Grog.
Bob has to win an opposed grapple check against Grog (still at
–4 for being prone) to stand up. This doesn’t provoke an attack
of opportunity from Grog (who doesn’t threaten Bob or anyone
else while grappling), but it does from Grog’s allies if they
threaten Bob (see page 143 in the PH). Once on his feet, Bob
can keep grappling without the prone penalty, or just let Grog
go. If Bob lets go, he can leave Grog’s space with a 5-foot step
and not provoke any attacks of opportunity. (Getting up is a
move action, but it’s not “movement” for purposes of taking a
5-foot step because Bob isn’t actually moving any distance, see
page 144 in the PH).
All of which is worthless since the PHB already had rules precedence for winding up in an illegal space.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
Simply saying "Healed and prone, Bob's mini is placed in the nearest {Random} legal space." would have fit rules precedence and saved space and saved face for the FAQ.
Last edited:
frankthedm
First Post
That said, FAQ has had some really good suggestions for changing the rules to make the game work better.
Except that the FAQ was derived from teh Sage Advice Articles in Dragon Magazine and was allowed to make such statements of errata becasue of it.
Not really - since the rules as written did not address the situation given.
A prone creature can occupy a spece that has an unconscious creature in it.
A creature that regained consciousness in an occupied space (via healing as per the example) did not end his turn in an occupied space - he became conscious during someone else's turn.
So merely saying to move the creature to the next unoccupied space would basically have a creature gain an extra set of actions in a turn - being unconscious and prone he would have to "move" out of the space (when it is not his turn) and crawling is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. So the FAQ answer actually provides a more logical system without automatically invoking a rules change.
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