What do you want? (Forked Thread: When did I stop being WotC's target audience?)

[justanobody]

I really don't see anyone advocating that they should go full on Mecha and Sailor Moon with the Ki Power source. All Cadfan is discussing is Anime Tropes. He listed several of them: Less armored fighter, unarmed melee class, unarmed/magical class, eastern weapons, refocus mid-combat, and building on Second Wind for further mid-combat recoveries.

So I don't get "Some anime (namely the far-flung or Sci FI anime) doesn't work for d20, so all anime should be segregated to its own RPG and not allowed in the room with D&D."

Princess Mononoke, Ninja Scroll, Basilisk, Berzerk, Scrapped Princess - very easy to facilitate with D&D.

It's like saying "3e D&D does not facilitate low-magic games because of the necessity of magical items and magical healing. Therefore, low magic games have no place in D&D and should be in its own RPG."

Here, I'll show you what is being talked about. Here's an example of something Anime/Wuxiash that can facilitate in D&D:

Quivering Palm * Monk Attack 25
Daily * Unarmed, Ki
Standard Action * Melee
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d[Unarmed]+Wis damage, and target is weakened. Until the end of the encounter, or five minutes, you can decide when the Quivering Palm's effect occurs, as a free action. Target takes 3d[Unarmed] damage and is no longer weakened.

The problem is when some hear anime, either in bad or good when relating to D&D, they want/think it all, from DBZ super saiyans, to Karas, from Tranzor Z to Gundam.... It really doesn't all fit, and even some of the things people try to classify as anime based are really not, and just happen to be oriental such as the mythology. Like your quivering palm is real, not something just from anime. So maybe by not classifying it wrong may help go over, as I also like monk concepts, but not so close to say Kantarou from Tactics....

People will buy anything called D&D in epic numbers because what people want is something called D&D that they can play with their friends.

This will be true almost regardless of what the contents between the pages are.

Almost, because if they replaced it with FATAL, sure, sales might drop.

I bet it'd still sell a boatload of Core Books that broke sales records and demanded fifth printings, though.

I do not disagree that a majority play D&D just for the name and all that comes with it from those of us through the decades that played it and made it grow to what it has become. I am pretty sure most new players get attracted solely for the name, and likewise it is the very name that may turn many others away.

I really think that some do want anything from D&D, so long as it has D&D written on it.

Considering that this thread asks "What do you WANT", criticizing someone for saying what they want really isn't fair. The OP asked for the answer that was given.

Yes, thanks for specifically stating what you want and feel D&D has left out for your fun, no matter what myself or others may disagree with you on. (like heavy anime influence)

Maybe somewhere in the future it will help someone see what is the correct course of action for making something for everyone, be it the amalgam game of everything inclusive, or seperate games for specific things.

 

[joethelawyer]

Then play the game that has the mechanics and style you want. Its when you demand that D&D be that game that the "entitlement" issue creeps into things.

i do. we heavily houseruled 3.0 into that game.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

What i want?

I want the layout to get even more professional. Take Red Hand of Doom and 1e layout and typography as negative examples, and move far, far away from them. Note: this is NOT directed against the content). That means:
- Never cram a book full of stuff. Make it readable and easy to get into.
- White space is your friend.
- Page layout, line spacing, kerning etc. have to work together! No "let´s just try this, haha." No "how about crashing readabiltiy with fancy backgrounds."

Please. There are rules and experts out there. Use them. 4e was a great step in the right direction, but there´s still a long way to go.

Hmm, it seems, i want exactly NOT what Darrin Drader wants - point for point. Creepy, that.

 

[Lanefan]

What i want?

I want the layout to get even more professional. Take Red Hand of Doom and 1e layout and typography as negative examples, and move far, far away from them. Note: this is NOT directed against the content). That means:
- Never cram a book full of stuff. Make it readable and easy to get into.

Disagree. Cram it full. Then stuff more in! I'd rather buy one crammed-full overstuffed book than three half-empty ones; one book almost always works out cheaper than three, and it's more convenient too.

- White space is your friend.

White space all too often implies you don't have (or decline to include, whatever) enough material to fill your page count.

- Page layout, line spacing, kerning etc. have to work together! No "let´s just try this, haha." No "how about crashing readabiltiy with fancy backgrounds."

Agree about the interfering backgrounds. Many of the 3e books were bad for this.

Lanefan

 

[FireLance]

Just going to do selective quoting to avoid a big wall of text

D&D started out Medieval Fantasy.

Where is it today in relation to that? Did the people really start disliking medieval games to want these other things? Did medieval gaming really affect what caused it to sale to begin with?

What focus and genre is the game aiming for, or is it trying to aim for one in particular?

I think then, as now, D&D simply tried to emulate contemporary fantasy tropes. That it happened to be Medieval European Fantasy in the days of OD&D and BD&D was simply due to the fact that other types of fantasy were not as widely-known or as popular then as they are now. By the game reached the AD&D stage, some trickles of non-European influences coudl be seen from the fact that the monk was a core class.

In short, if the tone of the game has changed since it was first published, it is because contemporary notions of fantasy have changed. Harry Potter has replaced Merlin. The movie version of LOTR is better known than the books. Li Mu Bai has ousted Kwai Chang Caine. Cloud has eclipsed Conan.

So, to go back to the original question, I want a D&D that is able to incorporate any crazy ideas that a kid in his early teens might want to add to his game, whether it's a Jedi, Spiderman, a Tauren, an Wuxia swordsman, or a historical knight. I want rules that are robust and flexible enough that anybody could use their creativity and imagination to make a game that they want to play. Sometimes this means adding stuff, in the same why that I added transforming robots and shapechanging knights to my D&D game when I was young (I was a big fan of the Transformers and the Visionaries). Sometimes this means taking stuff away, e.g. someone who wants to run a more "realistic" low-magic game ought to be able to get what he wants by removing some of the more "wahoo" choices.

 

[justanobody]

So, to go back to the original question, I want a D&D that is able to incorporate any crazy ideas that a kid in his early teens might want to add to his game

Sorry, I don't think Peter can pass many chainmail bikini minis through the pipeline as PC Heroes packs, so I doubt we will see those in official books anymore either.

However we might get a chance for an orcress in a chainmail bikini in a monster pack.

 

[Mallus]

I think then, as now, D&D simply tried to emulate contemporary fantasy tropes. That it happened to be Medieval European Fantasy in the days of OD&D and BD&D was simply due to the fact that other types of fantasy were not as widely-known or as popular then as they are now.

This.

In short, if the tone of the game has changed since it was first published, it is because contemporary notions of fantasy have changed. Harry Potter has replaced Merlin. The movie version of LOTR is better known than the books. Li Mu Bai has ousted Kwai Chang Caine. Cloud has eclipsed Conan.

And this.

I want a D&D that is able to incorporate any crazy ideas that a kid in his early teens might want to add to his game, whether it's a Jedi, Spiderman, a Tauren, an Wuxia swordsman, or a historical knight. I want rules that are robust and flexible enough that anybody could use their creativity and imagination to make a game that they want to play.

And this!

Trifecta!

 

[Mallus]

If I may - the functional part isn't the "Tao" vs "magic" thing. It is the "jump 800 feet and hold up your full weight on a leaf" thing.

To be fair, Li Mui Bai can't jump 800 in the air, that's more Warriors of Zu Mountain or Dragonball...

You want a monk who works on the same basic scale as a ranger or a fighter, that's cool. You want a monk who jumps three football fields alongside the same ranger and fighter, then we have a problem. Type mismatch

I'd like to point out that by 5th level a RAW 3e cleric can do a fair approximation of a wuxia fighter --arm him with a spear, cast Fly from the Travel Domain to emulate wuxia aerial moves. You now have a "monk" that can jump three football fields... straight up, if necessary.

Does this also cause a type mismatch? Or is this okay because we assume that clerics should outclass rangers and fighters by 5th level.

 

[Mallus]

I've never been a fan of monks (as in I don't like asian with my medieval).

That's fair. But I feel Asian fantasy does belong in D&D, since it was in the version of D&D I began playing (AD&D).

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I've never been a fan of monks (as in I don't like asian with my medieval).

Without the asian, there is no Katana, and all must bow before the Katana.