What do you want to see in the final issue of Dragon?

[Raven Crowking]

I think i vote for a picture of the entire WotC staff dressed up in their 'villain' gear complete with pencil thin handlebar mustaches, twirling them and kicking puppies.

You're probably thinking of TSR employees and Spellfire cards.

 

[Raven Crowking]

If you want to consider Animie fantasy by your standards, then you go right ahead.

I'm so glad you are here to tell the rest of us what we like.

Colour me confused.

Oh, wait, this is dredging up something to complain about on CM, isn't it?

 

[DM-Rocco]

First, I'm trying to find anywhere in my post where I asked you to apologize for your statements. You can say whatever you want about anime and how much you dont like it, but when you make broad statements like the one you made that people dont agree with, expect a response.

Second, READ MY POST. I, personally dont mind Elmore. What I said was that there are those that would consider his style to cartoony compared to Frazetta and Vellejo. So the same way that you thumb your nose at anime style fantasy art, there are people who grew up with those Frazetta and Vellejo art as their template of what fantasy is. Obviously there's room for both, except in your world where you define for everyone else what is and isnt D&D fantasy art. But hey, good luck with that.

Anime used in "low-end role-playing game aids".....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Have you picked up an issue of DUNGEON lately? I mean isnt this the same magazine that youre trying to save? Last time I checked UDON Studios have been doing quite a bit of art for that magazine and Chris Stevens art is pretty anime looking to me...

I mean these are some the same guys who work on the Street Fighter line of comics which last time checked looked hella anime/manga to me. But hey that would mean that you'd have to trash DUNGEON as well so I guess that you'll turn a blind eye, right?

I have never supported Animie in a D&D product and yes, I think it was a huge mistake on the part of WOTC to allow it into the game aids. There is a difference between not thinking animie is right for D&D and Fantasy and liking a magazine. You can like a magazine and hate the art, or are we in China?

Yes, I would love to save Dungeon and Dragon magazine, but do I think Animie has a place in the D&D world, no I do not. Would I want the magazines saved, but they had to have all animie art, sure I would, but it would be very disturbing.

Elmore, Frazetta and Vellejo and a slew of others from the hey day of the 80's and 90's, sure, great stuff. Animie, no, go sell it somewhere else.

Sure, I can see where some people love it. Hell, I watch Aminie on occasion too, but for me and everyone, and I mean everyone, I know, it is not D&D and it doesn't represent the D&D fantasy world.

For us it is just something that slipped through the gaps or the art directors son got a chance to break in. I don't care that the people who are doing Animie are professionals and work in other venues, that is not the point. The point is that it doesn't have any continuity with the past and only has continuity with the present because WOTC forced it down our thoughts.

I know people who picked up a Dungeon magazine thinking it was a Yu-gi-oh book. That is just wrong.

Anyway, the fantasy world of D&D can share the world with good artist, but not animie artist, even if that animie is good. If you want to look at it as just my opinion, fine, go ahead, but I am not alone in this thought, just my supporters are less vocal than you and the others who are posting aginst this line of thought.

 

[Waldorf]

Oh! A "what's been happening" with Waldorf. I know Greyhawk's The Adventure Begins dropped some tidbit on him. But since Waldorf came to glory in the pages of Dragon it would be perfect for Dragon to have an update on him in those pages.

Yes, I would love to know what I've been up to since then.

 

[Anti-Sean]

Hell, I watch Aminie[sic] on occasion too, but for me and everyone, and I mean everyone, I know, it is not D&D and it doesn't represent the D&D fantasy world.

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'.

I don't like anime very much myself, but many of the people I game with do; for them, it certainly can be part of D&D. Luckily for the game, WotC doesn't base their decisions exclusively on the habits of your group or my group; they've done *plenty* of market research. If they're incorporating anime influences into some of their products, then it stands to reason that their market dictates that they do so. While you might not like that, you only represent a subset of their market; if they catered solely to your wants, or solely to the wants of another of the several to many subsets of their market, they would fail miserably.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

You can like a magazine and hate the art, or are we in China?

That barb is rich coming from you. I'm the one basically saying that anime and D&D can exist side by side and your equating my comments with lack of choice?

Now THAT'S funny

Anyway, the fantasy world of D&D can share the world with good artist, but not animie artist, even if that animie is good. If you want to look at it as just my opinion, fine, go ahead, but I am not alone in this thought, just my supporters are less vocal than you and the others who are posting aginst this line of thought.

Well as far as I'm concerned I know a fair amount of people, younger people who have been influenced by LODOSS WAR, SLAYERS and BERSERK to look into D&D and role-playing games when they had no prior interest. So we can talk about the anectdotes of the gronard all day long, the fact of the matter is that neither of us decide the majority and the art IS there because someone other than the art director's son enjoys it.

I can understand something not being someone's particular cup of tea, I don't begrudge them that. But what I was calling you out on was your declaration that X doesnt belong in Y. You don't get to decide that for me, even if I agreed with your view on Anime (which, obviously I don't), you STILL don't get to decide that for me. Overall it sounds like a very closed minded point of view to have "I dont like this in my peanut butter and none of my friends like it in theirs so, no one should have it in thier peanut butter."

But since there's no middle ground to be reached here, I hope you get your anime influenced free D&D.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That barb is rich coming from you. I'm the one basically saying that anime and D&D can exist side by side and your equating my comments with lack of choice?

Now THAT'S funny

Person A believes that Anime has no place in D&D, but knows that others feel differently. Person A wants to save Dragon & Dungeon magazines.

Person B points out that both magazines borrow from Anime in terms of artistic style.

Person A agrees, and says that, while he likes the content overall, he wishes that the magazines didn't borrow from Anime style. It is not what he believes should be part of D&D.

I don't see anyone telling anyone what to like here, nor do I see anything paradoxical in either stance. Except for the hyperbole, nor do I see anything remotely worth arguing about. Person A is saying that he believes (and those he personally knows believe)there shouldn't be chocolate in his peanut butter. He isn't saying that Person B (or that all right-minded people) feel the same.

Personally, I don't care for Anime in my D&D, but then I didn't like the idea of railroads and guns in my D&D until 3.X came along and made it seem more plausible.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Person A believes that Anime has no place in D&D, but knows that others feel differently. Person A wants to save Dragon & Dungeon magazines.

Person B points out that both magazines borrow from Anime in terms of artistic style.

Person A agrees, and says that, while he likes the content overall, he wishes that the magazines didn't borrow from Anime style. It is not what he believes should be part of D&D.

I don't see anyone telling anyone what to like here, nor do I see anything paradoxical in either stance. Except for the hyperbole, nor do I see anything remotely worth arguing about. Person A is saying that he believes (and those he personally knows believe)there shouldn't be chocolate in his peanut butter. He isn't saying that Person B (or that all right-minded people) feel the same.

Personally, I don't care for Anime in my D&D, but then I didn't like the idea of railroads and guns in my D&D until 3.X came along and made it seem more plausible.

I dont know there Raven, Rocco's made some pretty definitive statements in his previous posts:

Animie is not D&D. Animie may have done fantasy films and may have been used in low end role-playing aids, but it is not what most people think of when they think of D&D or fantasy. Animie belongs in a Japanize film festival, not in a Dragon or Dungeon magazine. I like animie in movies, but if they, say, make the Dragonlance movie done in an Animie style, that will suck balls because that is not D&D fantasy and not the Dragonlance style.

You can say what you want, but Animie has no place in D&D fantasy.

and this little gem here:

Anyway, the fantasy world of D&D can share the world with good artist, but not animie artist, even if that animie is good. If you want to look at it as just my opinion, fine, go ahead, but I am not alone in this thought, just my supporters are less vocal than you and the others who are posting aginst this line of thought.

He as much as says that I can choose to see his point as opinion BUT it's not because he's not alone in this thinking it's just that his supporters arent as vocal? I basically took that as him saying "my way is how it is, you can choose not to believe but..."

I'm not looking to get back into this with him, since I agree this isn't worth arguing about, but since you brought this back up maybe he can clarify?

 

[Raven Crowking]

I dont know there Raven, Rocco's made some pretty definitive statements in his previous posts:

I try, though Pelor knows I'm not always successful, to read things in the best possible light on the Internet. Not having facial expressions/body language can really change something that the poster thinks is amusing to something that the reader thinks is inflamatory, real fast.

Yes, he is saying that his is an opinion shared with those he knows, but I don't think he is trying to say that his opinion is universal. He is describing his ideal D&D. IMHO, at least.

Pelor knows that I've offended people in the past by describing something the way I saw it without being explicit that I was talking about my own personal gaming ideal. I think that happens a lot.

RC

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I try, though Pelor knows I'm not always successful, to read things in the best possible light on the Internet. Not having facial expressions/body language can really change something that the poster thinks is amusing to something that the reader thinks is inflamatory, real fast.

Yes, he is saying that his is an opinion shared with those he knows, but I don't think he is trying to say that his opinion is universal. He is describing his ideal D&D. IMHO, at least.

Pelor knows that I've offended people in the past by describing something the way I saw it without being explicit that I was talking about my own personal gaming ideal. I think that happens a lot.

RC

D00d, you must have the patience of a saint, which I applaud you for.

Youre probably right in saying that I might have read his intentions incorrectly and youre also right about it happening on the internerd alot.