What do you want to see in the final issue of Dragon?

[BiggusGeekus]

Phil Foglio should be brought back for one last episode of "What's New" - the Sex & D&D episode.

Thread winning post.

 

[DM-Rocco]

D00d, you must have the patience of a saint, which I applaud you for.

Youre probably right in saying that I might have read his intentions incorrectly and youre also right about it happening on the internerd alot.

Crowking makes a great point, one I try to get across when others misread, or misunderstand what I am trying to say.

Without body lanuage and the tone of voice and other things, the internet causes a lot of problems in regards to things like this. Which leads to people like you (and me too, don't take it wrong) responding to things they don't understand fully. If you and I were in a Hobby shop or at a gaming table and had this conversation, you would most certainly get the feeling that I am refering to myself and friends and for me and my friends and others I know, animie has no place in D&D. It doesn't represent our version of D&D and it makes us feel as if we are playing pokemon versus a grand epic Lord of the Rings quest.

Had we been face to face, you might have offered a retort, but most likely you would have said nothing, or maybe you might have offered your opinion on the matter, but either way you could have figured out by tone of vioce and other signs that it is my opinion and one shared by others I know. Not a you must hate animie because I do feel.

Anyway, enough is enough. My original point was D&D didn't start out with animie, it is not the feel that started the look of D&D and I don't want to see it in the final issue.

So, back on subject, what would you like to see inthe final issue.

(NOTE: if you say animie you are a hateful man and are of course wrong*)

* see, that is humor

 

[DM-Rocco]

Animie
Japanize
Aminie

What the Hell?

I have large fingers with a mind of their own. Typos happen

 

[TheYeti1775]

Now back on track.

1. An awesome cover - perhaps one where the collassal red is dead with the fighter standing over him.

2. Anything by Gary, would love to see the eulogy by him.

3. No Sage Advice for this one.

4. Stats for the legendary Gary characters as mentioned before.

5. The Wizard's Three is always good.

6. A Bizarre of the Bazaar through the levels. Something for the 1-5 levels; 6-10 levels; 11-15 levels; 16-20; and 2 epics say 21-35; and a 36+

7. A really good poster that is framable.

 

[DM-Rocco]

No, he didn't.

I've tested covers with no coverlines and they don't work.

Fortunately, since this is the last issue of the magazine it will likely have a _much_ longer shelf-life, since the shelf-stockers won't have a new issue to stock, reminding them to trash the old issue.

Consequently, we're going to try to go light on the coverlines.

If given enough time, we probably would have looked into doing subscriber copies without coverlines, but this would have been a nightmare as far as coordination is concerned.

I don't like coverlines either, but to compete on the newsstand and to sell magazines in the mass market (where new D&D fans are made), they are a necessity.

I wish it wasn't so, but it is.

Sorry.

--Erik

IMO, you did.

Hi, nice of you to join in.

I see your point, and as you have first hand knowledge, perhaps I have to conceed that to you, but when you posted that editorial in Dragon claiming that you had to have all that on the cover, it really pissed me off. I think, personally, that you, as editor, were under pressure to get new readers every month.

I could be wrong, again I don't have hard numbers in front of me like you do or did, but back in the hey day, say around issue 100, you only had to print three small lines in the upper right hand corner of the magazine to get people to know what is inside, leaving most of the cover for the art.

Yes, I know you shouldn't judge a magazine by its cover, but people do and if the art is good, we don't want to see large blocky text covering it.

So, since you have been in the business for years and know more than I, are you saying that a smaller set of coverlines didn't or won't work?

Answer this then, why does it have to take up most of the cover? I work in graphic design and I know more and bigger is not always better. Maybe three small lines of descriptive text in the upper right hand corner wasn't enough in your opinion/knowledge, to get across what the magazine is about, but do you honestly think the copy on the front of the covers needed to be so overwhelming.

Super graphics are fine on occasion, just like tons of large bold print can be a great way to comunicate a special event, but IMO it really was a shame that you (and when I say you I mean you and/or what/whoever made cover choices) did it on every issue.

I would rather let the art speak for itself with smaller lines of text explaining what is inside. Or, they always come, now days, with a clear protective bag, even in the stores, why didn't you just print the really large bold coverlines on that and leave the art a lone? Once they buy the magazine, they don't need to know what is inside, they have already bought it?

 

[DM-Rocco]

Now back on track.
6. A Bizarre of the Bazaar through the levels. Something for the 1-5 levels; 6-10 levels; 11-15 levels; 16-20; and 2 epics say 21-35; and a 36+

I think this would be great. I always loved the Bizarre of the bazaar and I would love it if they did 3 or 4 items worthy of each of those level groups. Something for everyone and every level.

EDIT: I think it would be really cool if they not only did one item of each of those strengths but did one item for each race at those strengths. So, human, elf, dwarf, gnome, half-n-half races and halflings which ironically to me, don't fall in the half and half race. So six items from each of those level catagories.

 

[DM-Rocco]

No, no. John McCaine, AVENGING ARIZONA SENATOR!!!

Those are stats I'd like to see.

LOL, I like it.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Crowking makes a great point

Bet you never hear that again!

 

[Erik Mona]

I see your point, and as you have first hand knowledge, perhaps I have to conceed that to you,

That's reasonable.

but when you posted that editorial in Dragon claiming that you had to have all that on the cover, it really pissed me off. I think, personally, that you, as editor, were under pressure to get new readers every month.

You think correctly. That's the job of the editor-in-chief, after all. Too few readers and the magazine gets cancelled. Or at least that was the operating assumption. Turns out there are other reasons the magazine could get cancelled too, but we weren't considering that possibility when I wrote that editorial.

I could be wrong, again I don't have hard numbers in front of me like you do or did, but back in the hey day, say around issue 100, you only had to print three small lines in the upper right hand corner of the magazine to get people to know what is inside, leaving most of the cover for the art.

The magazine and the gaming industries were much different back in those days. In fact, Dragon was at the time sold in bookstores as a book product, and not through magazine distribution, so "competing on the newsstand" wasn't really even a concern back in the "heyday." The magazine was selling more than 100,000 copies back then, so it's pretty clear that the game itself was much, much more popular in terms of unit sales than it is today, much more akin to a Pokemon-style fad than the graying hobby that D&D has become today.

Additionally, it's clear through research and seven years of number crunching that the actual "quality" or subject matter of a cover has less to do with the sales of a mass market magazine than things like the color (red and white covers sell well, yellow and blue covers do not) and cover lines (covers with lots of numbers on them sell better than covers without). It's an arcane science and it's maddening and you're right to be frustrated about it, but it is what it is.

So, since you have been in the business for years and know more than I, are you saying that a smaller set of coverlines didn't or won't work?

Yes. I am saying exactly that.

I don't really expect you to believe it. I know I didn't when I joined the periodicals staff back in 1999, fresh from gamer-land. I hated the words on my covers too and missed the days when I could stare at the cover for a long time without reading a stupid pun.

But the numbers learned me.

Right after taking over Dragon, I ran a test on an issue with minimal coverlines, and despite it being a decent issue, the sales numbers were terrible. Not so much in game stores, but in mass market magazine accounts, which makes up a considerable amount of Dragon's distribution.

Answer this then, why does it have to take up most of the cover? I work in graphic design and I know more and bigger is not always better. Maybe three small lines of descriptive text in the upper right hand corner wasn't enough in your opinion/knowledge, to get across what the magazine is about, but do you honestly think the copy on the front of the covers needed to be so overwhelming.

I honestly think, if sales were all we cared about, that the coverlines should be MORE overwhelming than they are, but I just can't bring myself to make that decision. When I edited Dungeon art director Sean Glenn and I redesigned the cover format of that magazine to trim down the coverlines and give more space to the art, and I think that's probably the best approach.

On the newsstand, a few lines in the upper right hand corner are utterly worthless. Go to Barnes and Noble or any other newsstand where magazines are not displayed "full face" (which is most of them). Magazines there are fanned out, so that you usually only see about three inches of the LEFT side of the magazine. That's why most of the coverlines we do run are either on the top (the "skyline") or on the left-hand side. You might as well not put coverlines on the right, so I don't whenever I can help it.

That said, Dragon has a LOT more different bits of content in it than Dungeon, so the temptation to run the table of contents on the cover is strong, because each of those coverlines could convince hundreds of extra people to look at the magazine.

Super graphics are fine on occasion, just like tons of large bold print can be a great way to comunicate a special event, but IMO it really was a shame that you (and when I say you I mean you and/or what/whoever made cover choices) did it on every issue.

The coverline revolution probably happened about the time Johnny L. Wilson took over as group publisher of Dragon and Dungeon about 1998 or so, or perhaps earlier when Pierce Watters became Editor-in-Chief (and later Circulation Director). Both of these men were veterans of the magazine field (as opposed to gamers-made-good like yours truly), and they had a pretty good idea what does and doesn't work in the mass market. As a result, the circulations of both magazines climbed under their leadership (and, to be fair, with the beginning of third edition). Pierce in particular, with decades of experience selling books and magazines, has had a significant and positive effect on sales of Dragon and Dungeon magazines.

I would rather let the art speak for itself with smaller lines of text explaining what is inside. Or, they always come, now days, with a clear protective bag, even in the stores, why didn't you just print the really large bold coverlines on that and leave the art a lone? Once they buy the magazine, they don't need to know what is inside, they have already bought it?

Because printing on a polybag costs tens of thousands of dollars at the quantity we publish, and the magazines are expensive enough. If they never buy the magazine at all, they don't enjoy the cover or the contents.

Sometimes, when space allows, we reproduce the cover without the logo or coverlines somewhere in the magazine.

For our new monthly Adventure Path product, Pathfinder, we include no coverlines because it's a book and not a magazine, and doesn't need to compete with other magazines on the magazine rack.

And it's been a huge relief, honestly.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon

 

[DM-Rocco]

Because printing on a polybag costs tens of thousands of dollars at the quantity we publish, and the magazines are expensive enough. If they never buy the magazine at all, they don't enjoy the cover or the contents.

Sometimes, when space allows, we reproduce the cover without the logo or coverlines somewhere in the magazine.

For our new monthly Adventure Path product, Pathfinder, we include no coverlines because it's a book and not a magazine, and doesn't need to compete with other magazines on the magazine rack.

And it's been a huge relief, honestly.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon

Okay, I better understand your choice and don't hate a fellow Minnesota (or at least I assume since you had previously worked at the MOA) man as much as I wanted to

I do have a question or two given the new info then.

I was always wondering why you stopped printing the full art work from the cover in the magazine. When you first started that, I really didn't care that you had tons of coverlines because the inside picture was clean and looked better then the cover anyway. Then it just stopped.

Also, I guess I have to ask, in what markets did you sell Dragon that it was setting on a magazine rack? I only ever see it in a gaming or hobby store. I have never seen it in a book store like Barnes and Noble, and I did look with a passing interest. I have a subscription, but I always take a look at the magazines just to see if they sell such things.