What does a paladin do (or should be doing)?

[grimslade]

Paladins should be a class because enough people want a paladin class.
The job is to make a paladin as unique and distinct as we can.
Chivalric Christian knight is too narrow. There needs to be more to a class than holy tin can on a horse. Clerics are god creatures. Paladins are fanatical devotees to a cause or code. This could be a chivalric code, legal code or a personal code. The code is not a straight jacket; it is who the paladin is at their core. The paladin is a living example to follow. An ideal.
As a fanatic, a paladin is confident. Fear does not deter them. Their conviction is so strong they grant advantage to themselves and their allies within 15' against fear effects.
Paladins are so devout to their cause they can sense and even harm those that are antithetical to their cause. A paladin can Detect Nemesis/evil At-will in a 60' cone. A paladin can Channel Will/divinity to grant a Nemesis disadvantage from their steely glare.
A paladin can channel their innate will, much like a cleric or priest can channel divinity. A paladin can imbue their weapon with the fires of their zeal, strengthen their shield from foes attack, or lay on hands to rally.

It's a start.

 

[Daggerswan]

Abstruse, thanks for recommending Dresden Files. That's what this thread is about: exploring what a Paladin does or should be doing. This thread (along with the other one) I think are good for the game. They expose the forum members to a wide range of ideas about how something may be done, done differently, or not done at all. We all profit in the end, even from people we disagree with.

I hope more people chime in with their thoughts and do not shy away from the confrontation since it is obvious we still need more ideas.

 

[jadrax]

The job is to make a paladin as unique and distinct as we can.

I am not sure why people think this. Surly the job is to make the Paladin feel as much like a Paladin as possible. In a game with 15 or 16 core classes, I don't see class distinctiveness being a big thing tbh.

 

[MarkB]

First off, go read Dresden Files. Just trust me. Book 1's good, Book 2's better, and Book 3 will blow your friggin' mind. And Michael (who appears first in Book 3) is what I wish every paladin was played like.

Michael's also a good illustration of the "chosen by his deity" concept I mentioned earlier. With Michael, and the others of his order, there's a strong sense of their fate being guided by their deity. Sometimes he'll show up halfway through a case Dresden's investigating, apparently through sheer coincidence - but then as events unfold, it becomes clear that this was exactly where he needed to be, in order to save Dresden from some nasty evil wibbly thing.

If something of that sense - of the paladin's deity, or Fate itself, working subtly to put the paladin in the right place at the right time with the right tools for the job - could be incorporated into the class, but without taking control out of the player's hands in the process, that would be a very neat game-mechanic.

 

[Neonchameleon]

[MENTION=6669048]Abstruse[/MENTION], has my/the 4e Paladin as an Exemplar of a Virtue convinced you that there's a class to be had there?

I'm working on a writeup of the class with Paladins falling when either the world or they fail to meet their impossible standards - and at that point they decide that if either they can't be good or the world isn't worthy of them they might as well go all the way the other way and become a blackguard (same class but the Blackguard is the exemplar of a vice*,**). And the blackguard can likewise turn into a paladin - it's fundamentally one class.

Also for a good writeup of a D&D Paladin, I don't think anything beats Paksenarrion. And agreed about Galahad being much less interesting than Gawain

* I can't get all the deadly sins working - for instance I have no idea how to do a Blackguard of Sloth as compelling or interesting to play.

** Only those with enough self-discipline to be a Paladin can really go all out after a vice whether it be greed, pride, wrath, envy, or gluttony. (Lust I'm only touching with a ten foot bargepole if I take it back to Luxuria but I can fit it in there).

 

[Abstruse]

Michael's also a good illustration of the "chosen by his deity" concept I mentioned earlier. With Michael, and the others of his order, there's a strong sense of their fate being guided by their deity. Sometimes he'll show up halfway through a case Dresden's investigating, apparently through sheer coincidence - but then as events unfold, it becomes clear that this was exactly where he needed to be, in order to save Dresden from some nasty evil wibbly thing.

If something of that sense - of the paladin's deity, or Fate itself, working subtly to put the paladin in the right place at the right time with the right tools for the job - could be incorporated into the class, but without taking control out of the player's hands in the process, that would be a very neat game-mechanic.

I...am not going to get into discussing Dresden Files if I can help it because it and the Shadowrun metaplot are two of my biggest passions in life. But it should be noted that there are only three Knights of the Cross at any given time because there are only three Swords of the Cross. And that they come from very different cultural backgrounds with very different systems of faith - Michael is the traditional Christian archetype, but Shiro is a Shinto/Buddhist who was baptized by accident and Sanya is agnostic (which leads to some pretty interesting discussions). Michael himself typically shows up at the start of a story if he's going to show up, but the other knights have popped up randomly where they're needed and fate seems to take care of their mundane needs (in one case, Michael has his uncountable number of children at home but needs to go out to help Harry, when through random chance Father Forthill, a priest and ally of the two of them, happens to have had car trouble near Michael's house and just stopped by to phone a tow truck when he looked at them geared up for battle and said, "You need a babysitter, don't you?") And I'll try to avoid spoilers, but in one book a particular Knight of the Cross was desperately needed by Harry to even the odds and he regularly lamented through the book "Of course he/she's not here when we really need him/her", but it turns out that he/she was needed somewhere else in the world far more and one of the major plotlines of the story hinged on him/her being elsewhere.

@Abstruse , has my/the 4e Paladin as an Exemplar of a Virtue convinced you that there's a class to be had there?

Yes...for 4th Edition. Because of the design style of power source/role, having a divine defender was important to the game. It also gave the paladin a flavor that was completely different from the cleric or even the warpriest. The cleric was a leader, while the paladin was a defender. Since roles have gone right out the window in Next, so does that advantage. As the Moradin Cleric shows, it's possible to create a defender-style cleric that looks and feels almost exactly like a paladin.

In order for there to be a paladin class that actually adds to the game in a meaningful way, it needs to be unique enough from the cleric to justify being a class yet still versatile enough to allow for multiple build types (especially for a divine character who can have one of any number of different gods with different domains, different personalities, and different goals). Until we can get that sort of design for the paladin, I'm still not convinced it needs to be a class.

 

[Daggerswan]

The Cleric of Moradin does sorta feel like a Paladin... because he isn't following the rules (that we can see). Why does he use a d10 for damage and where does he get +4 to that damage? He wouldn't be such a bad-ass if he were only damaging at d8+2

Then there is the question about martial weapons. Do I need to be some other type of cleric to use the greatsword? How about an axe? WHY can't my "Paladin" just use whatever martial weapon he chooses?

But now we go back to the level thing. Is he still a melee bad-ass at the higher levels?

Finally there is the issue of the real feel of a Paladin. Can a Cleric of Moradin fail against a fear effect? If the answer is yes, he ain't no Paladin.

 

[Abstruse]

The Cleric of Moradin does sorta feel like a Paladin... because he isn't following the rules (that we can see). Why does he use a d10 for damage and where does he get +4 to that damage? He wouldn't be such a bad-ass if he were only damaging at d8+2

Then there is the question about martial weapons. Do I need to be some other type of cleric to use the greatsword? How about an axe? WHY can't my "Paladin" just use whatever martial weapon he chooses?

But now we go back to the level thing. Is he still a melee bad-ass at the higher levels?

Finally there is the issue of the real feel of a Paladin. Can a Cleric of Moradin fail against a fear effect? If the answer is yes, he ain't no Paladin.

The increased damage die comes from race. The +2 damage probably comes from either race or theme. There's a thread somewhere around here that's attempting to break that down, but most of the information on that comes from the Q&A chats with the developers. Until we see the character generation rules, we're not going to know for sure.

Weapon choice is probably going to come from your deity and/or race. Like in 3.5/PF where you automatically get proficiency with certain weapons based on your race and proficiency with the favored weapon of your deity as a cleric. A half-orc is going to be proficient with a greataxe regardless of class, while a cleric of Kord is probably going to be proficient with a greataxe regardless of race. Themes may also play a hand in it.

Considering the theme in question is "Defender" which looks at every step to be a melee combat theme, he's probably still going to be dominate in melee at 5th, 8th, 12th, etc. levels as he gains more feats. He'll fall into a more traditional "defender" role as assigned from 4e, probably gaining ability to jump in front of attacks to sacrifice himself for allies and mark enemies so that he gets free attacks if they don't focus on him. The sort of things that protect allies, sometimes at his own expense. This is also an educated guess since we won't know that for sure until we see the character generation rules or at least a version of the pregen at a higher level.

Paladins are as prone to fear effects as any other class until they hit a specific level. And in some editions, they simply just get bonuses to saving throws (or NADs depending on edition) for fear effects. For all we know, there could be a part of the Defender theme at 4th level that gives you immunity/increased resistance to fear. Or there could be a background that does that. If not failing fear checks is your sole definition of a paladin, does that mean that a halfling fighter with heavy armor and shield is a paladin?

 

[Daggerswan]

I never said that the fear thing was my sole definition of a Paladin. Do not use shady debate tactics with me. I am trying to have a real conversation here.

A Halfling Fighter with heavy armor and a shield could very well be a Paladin if they build the theme/feats to match what a Paladin is. I have already stated that I would not reject using a modified core class to build the Paladin. But in every edition of D&D so far, neither the Cleric nor the Fighter has been able to capture the feel of the Paladin. My assumption at this time is 5e will follow that trend. So, until we see more of the 5e rules, I am leaning towards Paladins being their own class.

[MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION]

The Blackguard of Sloth would be quite boring to play I would think. You just hang around the tavern eating Cheetos while the party heads out to the dungeon. Would a class feature be orange-stained fingers?

I am also not sure how well the Blackguard of Greed would do in actual play. It seems like a min-maxer type class.

 

[Abstruse]

I never said that the fear thing was my sole definition of a Paladin. Do not use shady debate tactics with me. I am trying to have a real conversation here.

A Halfling Fighter with heavy armor and a shield could very well be a Paladin if they build the theme/feats to match what a Paladin is. I have already stated that I would not reject using a modified core class to build the Paladin. But in every edition of D&D so far, neither the Cleric nor the Fighter has been able to capture the feel of the Paladin. My assumption at this time is 5e will follow that trend. So, until we see more of the 5e rules, I am leaning towards Paladins being their own class.

@Neonchameleon

The Blackguard of Sloth would be quite boring to play I would think. You just hang around the tavern eating Cheetos while the party heads out to the dungeon. Would a class feature be orange-stained fingers?

I am also not sure how well the Blackguard of Greed would do in actual play. It seems like a min-maxer type class.

What is the "feel" of a paladin then? Why does the Moradin cleric from Next not "feel" like a paladin? And please give me something other than code of conduct or knight in shining armor. The former is backstory/roleplay based and the latter is appearance based. Any fighter can take on a code of conduct while every cleric should, and anyone wearing heavy armor can put a coat of polish on it. Tell me what it is that a paladin can do or a paladin is that is more than just a melee-centered cleric or roleplay choices.

And for the record, a Blackguard of Sloth would be pretty cool to roleplay. You yourself would have to give up being able to indulge in your sin in order to spread that sin to others. Convincing them that inactivity or "wait and see" would be a better course of action than actually doing something. Talking someone into non-involvement or staying complacent. Same with a Blackguard of Greed convincing others that their own needs and wants are more important than others. That would be much more fun to me than a Blackguard of Wrath or Pride.