What does "does not stack with" mean?

[Archer]

Considering the very high cost of a speed weapon (much higher I might add than haste armor) I would say that you can take your haste action and the extra attack from the weapon.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: What does "does not stack with" mean?

If that is what they meant, then does that also restrict using the speed weapon's extra attack and doing something like drink a potion?

Spikey, I see this in very simple terms. Haste does not stack with speed. Speed does not stack with haste. You cannot use them both in the same round. It doesn't matter what you use them for. They don't stack. You can't have them both. You can't use them both. That's how simple I keep it. And I bet you will find that no matter how hard you try, I'm right. Though, it is just an opinion, and, I might be wrong.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What does "does not stack with" mean?

Spikey, I see this in very simple terms. Haste does not stack with speed. Speed does not stack with haste. You cannot use them both in the same round. It doesn't matter what you use them for. They don't stack. You can't have them both. You can't use them both. That's how simple I keep it. And I bet you will find that no matter how hard you try, I'm right. Though, it is just an opinion, and, I might be wrong.

You seem to have misunderstood my previous post.

In my opinion, you can use them both in the same round, and it would not constitute "stacking".

The extra attack from the Speed weapon occurs during your normal action, then you get the extra action from the Haste spell.

You just can't use the extra attack from speed during the extra action from the Haste spell. (Becase that would be "stacking" the two abilities.)

If they stacked, you could get three extra attacks. Since they don't stack you can only get two extra attacks. (Unless you have two Speed weapons, of course. Then you can get three extra attacks: one from each weapon, and one from the Haste spell.)

 

[kreynolds]

It doesn't matter. It specifically states that Speed does not stack with haste. In my mind, that means that if you have one weapon of speed, you can use your speed attack and use your haste action to cast a spell. That makes sense to me.

However, I does not make sense to me that you should be able to use your haste action to attack, then use your speed attack. They don't stack.

Besides, speed attack actions can be used any way you want. You don't have to use the attack action or the full attack action to use them, as far as I know (If I'm wrong, please point me to the errata.). Speed attacks are completely independent of everything else. Here is the entire description of Speed:

Speed: A weapon of speed allows the wielder one single extra attack each round at his highest bonus. It is not cumulative with haste. The extra attack must be with this weapon, not with some other weapon. The weapon does not grant the benefits of a haste spell, so an additional partial action is not what is granted, simply an extra single attack with this weapon.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Market Price: +4 bonus.

Look at where it says A weapon of speed allows the wielder one single extra attack each round at his highest bonus. That says to me that you get one extra attack every single round with your speed weapon, despite what you do that round.

Also, look where it says It is not cumulative with haste. This says to me that you can either use your speed weapon, or your haste action, but not both. Also, notice that the caster requirements for speed includes Haste.

See where I'm going with this?

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What does "does not stack with" mean?

You just can't use the extra attack from speed during the extra action from the Haste spell. (Becase that would be "stacking" the two abilities.)

I may be misunderstanding this part, but, are you saying that if speed and haste did stack; you make your speed attack during your action, then when you took your haste action, you would get another? If they stacked?

It so, it doesn't make a lick of a difference. (hehe, that's the redneck in me coming out. ) You only get one extra attack per round, per speed weapon. So your example is doesn't apply in any way, shape, or form, if I'm understanding it correctly, that is.

 

[Caliban]

It doesn't matter. It specifically states that Speed does not stack with haste. In my mind, that means that if you have one weapon of speed, you can use your speed attack and use your haste action to cast a spell. That makes sense to me.

However, I does not make sense to me that you should be able to use your haste action to attack, then use your speed attack. They don't stack.

Besides, speed attack actions can be used any way you want. You don't have to use the attack action or the full attack action to use them, as far as I know (If I'm wrong, please point me to the errata.). Speed attacks are completely independent of everything else. Here is the entire description of Speed:



Look at where it says A weapon of speed allows the wielder one single extra attack each round at his highest bonus. That says to me that you get one extra attack every single round with your speed weapon, despite what you do that round.

Also, look where it says It is not cumulative with haste. This says to me that you can either use your speed weapon, or your haste action, but not both. Also, notice that the caster requirements for speed includes Haste.

See where I'm going with this?

Yes. I just happen to disagree with your reasoning. You aren't really looking at how the abilities are operating.

I showed how it's not cumulative with haste: the Speed ability doesn't activate during the haste action.

You do have to take the Attack or Full attack action to activate a Speed weapon. Weapon abilities are Use Activated, which means you have to actually use the weapon to activate it's ability.

The only time you are using a weapon is when you are taking the Attack or Full attack action with it. (This has been confirmed by the Sage in regards to the Defender special ability - you can't just hold the weapon and make use of it's defense ability, you actually have to take the attack or full attack action.)

When you use two Speed weapons, you gain one extra attack on a Standard Attack Action (because you can only use one of them to attack), two extra attacks on a Full Attack Action (because you can use both weapons to attack on a Full Attack Action). This has been confirmed by the Sage.

From what you are saying, if they are hasted they suddenly lose both of those extra attacks when making a full attack action. That simply doesn't make any sense to me.

That is why I believe that it is referring to using the Speed ability during the haste action when it says they don't stack. You still get your normal extra attack from the Speed weapon, you just don't get it again if you attack during the extra partial action from haste. That is what I believe it means when it states that they don't stack.

 

[Spatula]

It seems to me that the most logical way to interpret that is that you can't use a speed weapon to get one more attack during a haste partial, but you can get 1 extra attack from speed and one extra attack from haste in the same round.

If that's the case, the "does not stack" statement is pointless, since by the rules you cannot attack more than once with a partial action anyway. And there's nothing in the description of the speed ability that exempts it from that rule, unless it's been errata'd.

 

[kreynolds]

That is why I believe that it is referring to using the Speed ability during the haste action when it says they don't stack. You still get your normal extra attack from the Speed weapon, you just don't get it again if you attack during the extra partial action from haste. That is what I believe it means when it states that they don't stack.

No, you aren't getting me. I agree with your assessment of the speed ability itself and it's uses. No problem.

Here is my problem with your theory. You said You still get your normal extra attack from the Speed weapon, you just don't get it again if you attack during the extra partial action from haste.

My response to that? No kidding?! Really!? Never would have though! Why is that my response? Because if you have one speed weapon, it gives you one, and only one, attack per round. So it doesn't make any difference if you use haste for an attack or not. You still only get one attack from one weapon of speed.

This part is elementary and shouldn't even be under scrutiny of any kind (even though my spelling is kind of elementary).

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: What does "does not stack with" mean?

If that's the case, the "does not stack" statement is pointless, since by the rules you cannot attack more than once with a partial action anyway. And there's nothing in the description of the speed ability that exempts it from that rule, unless it's been errata'd.

That's not quite true.

A Partial Action just restricts you to taking the Attack Action, which only allows one normal attack.

You can get multiple "extra" attacks with Cleave/Great Cleave, even on a partial action.

The speed ability is the same way, it gives an "extra" attack, outside your normal attack sequence. It does this even if you are taking the Standard Attack Action, or are reduced to a Partial Action from a Slow effect.

I think the "does not stack" text was an attempt to make it clear that you didn't get to use the Speed ability twice in one round with the same weapon, even if you are hasted.

 

[kreynolds]

From what you are saying, if they are hasted they suddenly lose both of those extra attacks when making a full attack action. That simply doesn't make any sense to me.

Well it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either, but that's the only way I can logically interpret that.