D&D 5E What does it mean that a deity can have a different rank on a different world?
Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
Its a trap. Haven’t you seen Star Trek V, aka THE BEST STAR TREK MOVIE?
cbwjm
Seb-wejem
When I think of this, if I think of this at all, I tend to think of it as influence that a power can exert on a world. A greater god in one world wanting to extend into another will have to work for it by slowly extending their influence amongst first a cult of followers who may not even have divine gifts initially. Eventually, the new cult reaches some critical mass of faith and the god becomes a lesser power, as they gain more followers they grow in power within the pantheons of that world. This only really works with the faith as power model, not something that I typically use though. Normally within a specific home campaign, the gods are wholly separate from other worlds anyway and this doesn't really come up.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
Yeah, I think it's primarily just there as a poor attempt to deal with inconsistencies (Tiamat as Takhisis being a Greater Power).
The thing is, in my world deities are NPCs, like they've been officially in pretty much every edition of D&D (2e was weird, but it talked out of both sides of its mouth a lot with contradictory info). They have stats. They can talk with you. So the question is, Tiamat runs into Moradin in the Nine Hells, and what rank of deity is she? All this stuff about being relative to a certain world makes no sense when you are actually dealing with an NPC at home that has an actual divine rank. If they had decided that divine rank had nothing to do with the being themself, but only with how much power they could exert on a world, then it would make perfect sense, but that is basically the opposite of what they did. There is no description of how a Lesser Deity has any less influence on a world than a Greater Deity. They all grant the same spells. There is no rule of the game, or even described fictional reality that makes their influence on a world vary in the least based on that rank. What varies is whether they have* a physical form (which usually isn't on the world they are worshipped on!) they are using to sit on their throne in Arborea or not, and whether they are comprehensible. None of that has a thing to do with worshippers on different worlds.
In the example of Takhisis and Tiamat, the way I deal with it is that Takhisis, the important Greater Power of Krynn has a permanent avatar created way back when, that has since become a semi-independent Lesser Power known as Tiamat. With regards to deities that don't have enough going on to justify that sort of interpretation, I'll probably just have to say that they actually are the higher rank, but don't get as much respect on some worlds or something.
*I would say, "are necessarily bound to", but again, that's me fixing a sloppy sidebar not what it says.
The thing is, in my world deities are NPCs, like they've been officially in pretty much every edition of D&D (2e was weird, but it talked out of both sides of its mouth a lot with contradictory info). They have stats. They can talk with you. So the question is, Tiamat runs into Moradin in the Nine Hells, and what rank of deity is she? All this stuff about being relative to a certain world makes no sense when you are actually dealing with an NPC at home that has an actual divine rank. If they had decided that divine rank had nothing to do with the being themself, but only with how much power they could exert on a world, then it would make perfect sense, but that is basically the opposite of what they did. There is no description of how a Lesser Deity has any less influence on a world than a Greater Deity. They all grant the same spells. There is no rule of the game, or even described fictional reality that makes their influence on a world vary in the least based on that rank. What varies is whether they have* a physical form (which usually isn't on the world they are worshipped on!) they are using to sit on their throne in Arborea or not, and whether they are comprehensible. None of that has a thing to do with worshippers on different worlds.
In the example of Takhisis and Tiamat, the way I deal with it is that Takhisis, the important Greater Power of Krynn has a permanent avatar created way back when, that has since become a semi-independent Lesser Power known as Tiamat. With regards to deities that don't have enough going on to justify that sort of interpretation, I'll probably just have to say that they actually are the higher rank, but don't get as much respect on some worlds or something.
*I would say, "are necessarily bound to", but again, that's me fixing a sloppy sidebar not what it says.
cbwjm
Seb-wejem
I dealt with Takhisis and Tiamat by assuming that they were different deities, it's one of the pieces of lore that I just flat out ignored.
You could go with all deities are demigods. Once they gain a following in a world they go up in rank, a small following might make them a lesser power, large makes them intermediate, and a major following makes them a greater deity. This isn't just in the affected world but out in the planes as well. Only in the material plane does their power fluctuate so that even though they are a greater power no matter where in the outer planes they are, in prime worlds the power they can exert is limited based on their followers. That way when two gods meet in the outer planes you don't get any weird discrepancy where one is a greater power in one world but still a lesser power in the outer planes.
You could even decide that a greater power in a single world only counts as an intermediate deity in the outer planes (assuming you still have that rank in your game) but if they manage a second major following in another world they gain the power of a full greater deity in the outer planes as well. I think this is kind of how the primal order deities gaining power though far more simplified.
You could go with all deities are demigods. Once they gain a following in a world they go up in rank, a small following might make them a lesser power, large makes them intermediate, and a major following makes them a greater deity. This isn't just in the affected world but out in the planes as well. Only in the material plane does their power fluctuate so that even though they are a greater power no matter where in the outer planes they are, in prime worlds the power they can exert is limited based on their followers. That way when two gods meet in the outer planes you don't get any weird discrepancy where one is a greater power in one world but still a lesser power in the outer planes.
You could even decide that a greater power in a single world only counts as an intermediate deity in the outer planes (assuming you still have that rank in your game) but if they manage a second major following in another world they gain the power of a full greater deity in the outer planes as well. I think this is kind of how the primal order deities gaining power though far more simplified.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
They were considered different deities prior to 5e I believe. I just never liked the idea that Takhisis and Paladine were not actually Tiamat and Bahamut, given that they looked exactly like them, so I went with 5e's idea that they are somehow the same, and making one an avatar feels like it works without any problems.
Since 5e ditched Intermediate, and actually gives ranks to a few scattered deities here and there, I'm leaving out Intermediate.
Hexmage-EN
Legend
The Raven Queen is a good example here, too.
In 4E, she became goddess of death in the Points of Light setting after magically killing the god Nerull and absorbing his divine spark. Her role was to guide the souls of the dead to their final destinations. In 5E's Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, she was an elf queen who tried to use a ritual to become a goddess, but ultimately failed due to the interference of the nagpa and became some kind of bizarre entity that harvests memories. In 5E's Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, the Raven Queen is once again said to be a goddess of death who gained her divine spark from magically killing another god of the dead (furthermore, her actions inspired other spellcasters in the world of Exandria to try and manipulate godhood, including Vecna, who in the Exandria setting first became a god on that world). The Raven Queen is established in each case to be situated in the Shadowfell, which if I understand correctly in 5E lore is shared between all worlds.
In 4E, she became goddess of death in the Points of Light setting after magically killing the god Nerull and absorbing his divine spark. Her role was to guide the souls of the dead to their final destinations. In 5E's Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, she was an elf queen who tried to use a ritual to become a goddess, but ultimately failed due to the interference of the nagpa and became some kind of bizarre entity that harvests memories. In 5E's Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, the Raven Queen is once again said to be a goddess of death who gained her divine spark from magically killing another god of the dead (furthermore, her actions inspired other spellcasters in the world of Exandria to try and manipulate godhood, including Vecna, who in the Exandria setting first became a god on that world). The Raven Queen is established in each case to be situated in the Shadowfell, which if I understand correctly in 5E lore is shared between all worlds.
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Hexmage-EN
Legend
Really, it's just easiest to say that all interpretations are equally valid because every DM is going to have a different interpretation and every party is going to have a different experience running the same campaign book.
One person is going to say Tiamat and Takhisis are not the same, and another person will say they are. Some will say Tiamat was stopped from entering the Forgotten Realms, and another will say she has conquered the Sword Coast. One will say she's trapped in Avernus, and another will say she fights over Tytherion with Zehir.
One person is going to say Orcus was born from the soul of a mortal villain, one will say he sprung forth from the Abyss, one will say he's a corrupted primordial, one will say he tried to become a god using the Last Word and failed, one will say he tried to become a god by absorbing the Raven Queen's divine spark and failed, one will say he is a god in the Ghostwalk setting, etc.
Oh, and don't forget yugoloths, who are either the creators of all fiends, just a weird subset of demons, or the product of Asmodeus commissioning some night hags to make new fiends.
One person is going to say Tiamat and Takhisis are not the same, and another person will say they are. Some will say Tiamat was stopped from entering the Forgotten Realms, and another will say she has conquered the Sword Coast. One will say she's trapped in Avernus, and another will say she fights over Tytherion with Zehir.
One person is going to say Orcus was born from the soul of a mortal villain, one will say he sprung forth from the Abyss, one will say he's a corrupted primordial, one will say he tried to become a god using the Last Word and failed, one will say he tried to become a god by absorbing the Raven Queen's divine spark and failed, one will say he is a god in the Ghostwalk setting, etc.
Oh, and don't forget yugoloths, who are either the creators of all fiends, just a weird subset of demons, or the product of Asmodeus commissioning some night hags to make new fiends.
shadowoflameth
Adventurer
I think as the metagaming DM, it's code for. If in your world a deity is more or less important, just make it the way you want it to be. If your game takes place on a world ruled by the goblins, feel free to give Maglubiyet or Vaprak a central role.
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