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What does the fighter need...
- Thread starter awayfarer
- Start date
EyeontheMountain
First Post
I think the fighter needs several things
1. More BAB than other full BAB classes. +1 a level is fine, until you see the Barbarian, Ranger, Duskblade and such get it also, plus lots of cool abilities on the side.
2. More class abiities at medium/high levels. Sorry, but pure feats does not make for ultimate power. Social abilities would be good also.
3. More skills. Perhaps choose two of six skills or such? Maybe one more skill point per level, or two? WOTC obviously overvalued feats when they made the Fighter.
4. Less flying/invisibility on the side of the enemies. WOTC gave spellcasters 100 ways to avoid the poor fighter, but the fighter 0 ways to counter them.
1. More BAB than other full BAB classes. +1 a level is fine, until you see the Barbarian, Ranger, Duskblade and such get it also, plus lots of cool abilities on the side.
2. More class abiities at medium/high levels. Sorry, but pure feats does not make for ultimate power. Social abilities would be good also.
3. More skills. Perhaps choose two of six skills or such? Maybe one more skill point per level, or two? WOTC obviously overvalued feats when they made the Fighter.
4. Less flying/invisibility on the side of the enemies. WOTC gave spellcasters 100 ways to avoid the poor fighter, but the fighter 0 ways to counter them.
Vyvyan Basterd
Adventurer
FalcWP said:
I think the Fighter is fine as-is, but the above is a valid point. I think this could be solved by removing Class Skills from the game. Let the Fighter take full ranks in Diplomacy if he wishes, etc. That would allow better choice in playing the character you envision.
Dagredhel
Explorer
I vote more skills and more combat power, particularly at higher levels.
For skills, I prefer a suggestion I saw on these boards some time ago, which was to give the Fighter a "noncombat specialty".
I don't remember the details of the original work-up, just the concept, which I thought was pretty neat.
A Fighter still wouldn't be a skill-monkey, but there's be some room to accomodate different character concepts without the necessity of looking beyond the class.
If it was left to me, I'd do it something like this:
A fighter would select a noncombat specialty at 1st level.
At 1st level and at every odd level thereafter, the fighter would receive a bonus skill rank in each of two skills chosen from those available to his specialty.
Each specialty could include three (or so) skills, as per the examples below:
Sentinel: Listen, Search, Spot
Acrobat: Balance, Jump, Tumbling
Cavalier: Handle Animal, KS: Nobility & Royalty, Ride
To avoid straightjacketing the character later in his career, you could allow the option of switching specialties at certain levels to enforce some consistency while allowing room for organic development.
As for combat power, I think the fighter is fine if you're only using the PHB + PHB2 and making the comparison against other "meat shield" classes, but underpowered as compared to the ToB classes, high level spellcasters, or splatbook-tweaked Clerics and Druids.
Personally, I llike the idea of bonus damage dice.
Double the bonus damage dice for a single attack made as a full attack action to discourage all the dice rolling from iterative attacks, but let it also apply to extra attacks from cleaves, whirlwind attacks, etc.
By 20th, the bonus could be something like +4d6/+3d6/+2d6/+1d6 for iterative attacks, or +20d6 for a single attack (taken as a full attack action).
The bonus damage dice either wouldn't apply to extra TWF attacks, or it would be a matter of splitting the damage dice. Either way, the TWF character wouldn't benefit disproportionately.
I'm not sure how much bonus damage would be appropriate, though.
For skills, I prefer a suggestion I saw on these boards some time ago, which was to give the Fighter a "noncombat specialty".
I don't remember the details of the original work-up, just the concept, which I thought was pretty neat.
A Fighter still wouldn't be a skill-monkey, but there's be some room to accomodate different character concepts without the necessity of looking beyond the class.
If it was left to me, I'd do it something like this:
A fighter would select a noncombat specialty at 1st level.
At 1st level and at every odd level thereafter, the fighter would receive a bonus skill rank in each of two skills chosen from those available to his specialty.
Each specialty could include three (or so) skills, as per the examples below:
Sentinel: Listen, Search, Spot
Acrobat: Balance, Jump, Tumbling
Cavalier: Handle Animal, KS: Nobility & Royalty, Ride
To avoid straightjacketing the character later in his career, you could allow the option of switching specialties at certain levels to enforce some consistency while allowing room for organic development.
As for combat power, I think the fighter is fine if you're only using the PHB + PHB2 and making the comparison against other "meat shield" classes, but underpowered as compared to the ToB classes, high level spellcasters, or splatbook-tweaked Clerics and Druids.
Personally, I llike the idea of bonus damage dice.
Double the bonus damage dice for a single attack made as a full attack action to discourage all the dice rolling from iterative attacks, but let it also apply to extra attacks from cleaves, whirlwind attacks, etc.
By 20th, the bonus could be something like +4d6/+3d6/+2d6/+1d6 for iterative attacks, or +20d6 for a single attack (taken as a full attack action).
The bonus damage dice either wouldn't apply to extra TWF attacks, or it would be a matter of splitting the damage dice. Either way, the TWF character wouldn't benefit disproportionately.
I'm not sure how much bonus damage would be appropriate, though.
jasin
Explorer
I voted maneuver/stance progression since that's IMO the best option of what's offered, but I don't think actual maneuvers/stances are necessary.
A fighter needs something no-one else can get.
When the fighter uses Great Cleave, the barbarian says "sure, I can do that". When he uses Spring Attack, the rogue says "sure, I can do that".
To be fair, fighters do have things others don't. There's Weapon Specialization and further fighter-only feats, but a straight numerical bonus is boring. They also have the nebulous opportunity for synergy from having both Great Cleave and Spring Attack and whatever else, but that's too, well, nebulous.
They need something that can make everyone else say "ooh, I wish I could do that".
The Iron Heroes' man-at-arms ability to pick a limited number of feats on the spot is going in the right direction, while still adhering to the fighter's concept.
A fighter needs something no-one else can get.
When the fighter uses Great Cleave, the barbarian says "sure, I can do that". When he uses Spring Attack, the rogue says "sure, I can do that".
To be fair, fighters do have things others don't. There's Weapon Specialization and further fighter-only feats, but a straight numerical bonus is boring. They also have the nebulous opportunity for synergy from having both Great Cleave and Spring Attack and whatever else, but that's too, well, nebulous.
They need something that can make everyone else say "ooh, I wish I could do that".
The Iron Heroes' man-at-arms ability to pick a limited number of feats on the spot is going in the right direction, while still adhering to the fighter's concept.
frankthedm
First Post
Fighters seem weak because the other full BAB classes were given too much.
No other class should have Heavy armor proficiency until 2nd or 3rd level, not like one can afford it until then!
Barbarians should have all simple weapons and a nominal number of martial weapons, say 3.
Let the Rangers only have proficiency in the weapons that work with their combat styles.
Also some key fighter benefits are given away by the ruleset.
Mithral full plate should NOT be treated as medium armor for purposes of proficiency. When that was done, heavy armor proficiency was weakened, thus weakening the fighter.
If the fighter needs any fancy ‘ability’, I’d say make it an ability to reduce the armor check penalty / movement reduction of heavy armor. Als omore late level, fighter only feats.
No other class should have Heavy armor proficiency until 2nd or 3rd level, not like one can afford it until then!
Barbarians should have all simple weapons and a nominal number of martial weapons, say 3.
Let the Rangers only have proficiency in the weapons that work with their combat styles.
Also some key fighter benefits are given away by the ruleset.
Mithral full plate should NOT be treated as medium armor for purposes of proficiency. When that was done, heavy armor proficiency was weakened, thus weakening the fighter.
If the fighter needs any fancy ‘ability’, I’d say make it an ability to reduce the armor check penalty / movement reduction of heavy armor. Als omore late level, fighter only feats.
Arkhandus
First Post
I voted the first option, as it's generally what fighters need most; some capacity to take part in the portions of the game that aren't just pure combat. Certainly they don't need to be able to do much then, they just need to be able to do something. They'd also better represent the wide range of warrior-types they're supposed to.
That aside, I'd recommend you check out Nyaricus' "What DO you DO for...Fighters?" thread in the House Rules forum. I'll dig up a link for it in a moment, but it's not too far down the queu (something like page 3 or so I'd guess). A lot of folks contributed their little tweaks and versions of the fighter.
Edit: Here it is. http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=167223
Also, Nightfall: Buster Sword (two-handed exotic melee weapon, requires str 17+ and fighter level 1+ to gain proficiency through Exotic Weapon Proficiency, damage: 4d4 medium/3d4 small, critical: 19-20/x2, slashing/piercing, weight: 14 lbs.)
That aside, I'd recommend you check out Nyaricus' "What DO you DO for...Fighters?" thread in the House Rules forum. I'll dig up a link for it in a moment, but it's not too far down the queu (something like page 3 or so I'd guess). A lot of folks contributed their little tweaks and versions of the fighter.
Edit: Here it is. http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=167223
Also, Nightfall: Buster Sword (two-handed exotic melee weapon, requires str 17+ and fighter level 1+ to gain proficiency through Exotic Weapon Proficiency, damage: 4d4 medium/3d4 small, critical: 19-20/x2, slashing/piercing, weight: 14 lbs.)
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