D&D General What ever happened to the Cavalier?

When it comes to treating a mount like a weapon, stealing is one thing, a fireball is something else.
With the Evasion plus HP leveling, a level 5 pony (medium mount, so lowest HP) should be able to survive a fireball or three. It has 33 HP, and takes ~14 damage on a failed save, and none on a successful save. I figured that should be sufficient on the survivability front.

It's probably actually a little high on the HP, but other ideas I had got complicated in the math, and I figured it wasn't worth worrying about.

And there is the tendency for players to treat mounts as pets, and develop an emotional bond to them. Yeah, some do the same with weapons, but it's less common.
Treating them as equipment is about how the system treats them mechanically, not the emotional bonds players may have. Treating them as equipment is exactly because I don't want to interfere with the emotional bonds.
 

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Stormonu

Legend
@Kinematics , what are your thoughts on the more "advanced" mounts - f'ex, my Paladin is currently riding an Allosaurus, which has a rather vicious bite attack. How would you handle it's attack ability? I'm thinking a bonus action to use the mount's attack routine, but thought I'd bounce it out here. Likewise, other monsters including griffins, manticores, wyverns, dragons and the like.

Also, while it's probably beyond the scope of a normal cavalier, what about carts, wagons and other vehicles drawn by a mount or multiple mounts. Should they be handled using the same mount rules? I'm not particularly fond of the vehicles rules from Descent into Avernus and would like a somewhat streamlined version of that and possibly the ship rules from Saltmarsh.
 





Carlsen Chris

Explorer
And really, there's a reason for that. If the game wants you to traipse around in dungeons, there's not much place for a shining knight astride a valiant steed, so making a class (or subclass) based around mounted combat is actually less problematic, apparently, than shoving a kung fu guy into your quasi-European fantasy game.

Plus, if you have to rely on a real horse, and not a magical horse, ala the Paladin, that presents it's own problems.

Though, as an aside, I would find it hilarious for Cavaliers to become a subclass of Paladin, the complete reverse of 1e's Unearthed Arcana.
Three things.
1st edition Cavaliers "traipsed" around in dungeons as you put it all the time. And if there's not much place for a shining knight in 5e, a significant portion of Paladins should bugger off.
I've DMed, played, or sat in on hundreds of games of 5E since it was released. Still a small sample size, I know. But the vast majority of them either included no dungeons or very little of them.
Last, historically in the late medieval period "Cavaliers" (actually knights, men-at-arms, valets, French gros varlets, etc) fought mostly on foot rather than horseback. It was with the advent of the Italian Wars that heavily armoured men returned to their role as cavalry before disappearing completely. I know D&D is not historical wargaming.
 

Carlsen Chris

Explorer
Battlemaster + Animal Handling + whatever feats and fighting style add the flavor you want. Done.
Fighting ability+religion+oath+whatever feats and fighting style add the flavor you want. Done. Now we can get rid of Paladin. They're just fighters.
Spellcasting+books+school of magic+whatever feats and spells add the flavor you want. Done. Now we can get rid of wizards. They're just clerics with arcane spells.
You can be as reductive as you like with D&D classes (and races). But that would be incredibly boring.
 

@Kinematics , what are your thoughts on the more "advanced" mounts - f'ex, my Paladin is currently riding an Allosaurus, which has a rather vicious bite attack. How would you handle it's attack ability? I'm thinking a bonus action to use the mount's attack routine, but thought I'd bounce it out here. Likewise, other monsters including griffins, manticores, wyverns, dragons and the like.
I had to take some time to think this over.

My first thought was to adopt a little of Level Up's mounted combat, which has refined things from O5E. An O5E mount can only Dash, Disengage, or Dodge, though it doesn't require any action on your part to allow that. A5E allows you to direct your mount to make an ability check or take the Attack action (but not multiattack) by using your bonus action.

Allowing this can make a mounted combatant quite a bit more dangerous. A warhorse would get a 2d6+4 hooves attack, and an allosaurus would get a 2d10+4 bite attack. Getting that as a bonus action feels a bit overpowered. On the other hand, it certainly motivates the enemy to knock you off your mount.

There's also special actions, like the allosaurus's Pounce, which has a chance to knock an opponent prone if the allosaurus uses a claw attack and the enemy fails the save. (Same for the warhorse's Charge.) Those abilities also give a chance for the mount creature to make a bonus action attack if the knockdown is successful, but that aspect certainly shouldn't be available during a mount action that is itself a bonus action. But the knockdown itself does feel like it should be possible. (Putting aside whether you would then be able to reach a prone opponent with your own weapon.)

Level Up makes that distinction moot in most cases, because the extra effects are tied to the basic attack in the first place. For example, the warhorse just has its Hooves attack which can knock prone if there was sufficient movement beforehand, and not a separate Trampling Charge. Since that seems mainly like a clarification of the stat block, let's just assume that to be how things generally work, though also ignoring any potential bonus action attacks.

Then we have to compare it to another very similar class situation: the beastmaster ranger. With Tasha's update, you can use a bonus action to get the companion to attack, and you can sacrifice an attack when you take the attack action to also get the companion to attack. However the companion's attack damage is 1d8+2+PB (so between 1d8+4 and 1d8+8), which, even at the high end, is less than the allosaurus's bite, and only a little ahead of a warhorse's hooves.

This feels (again) overpowered... except that the ranger is entirely capable of making use of this as well, and still be able to also command its companion. So...

How about this: If you have proficiency in Animal Handling, you may sacrifice one of your attacks from the Attack action to command your mount to make an attack.

You'd be sacrificing an attack to get the mount to attack, but that can be a good trade for damage, and often a bonus effect. It may not be as useful for lower-end mounts, though. For example, a pony in A5E does only 1d4 damage (it doesn't even add its strength, for some reason). A mastiff is probably better for small characters, since it does 1d4+1 and has a chance to knock the target prone. In O5E, a pony does 2d4+2, while a mastiff does 1d6+1, with a chance to knock prone.

I'd be fine with using a bonus action for commanding the attack if all mounts stayed at the low end, but the high end and exotic mounts feel way too imbalanced if that is allowed. Maybe: Starting at level 5, if your mount is CR 1/4 or less, you may use a bonus action to command it rather than sacrificing an attack.
 


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