What exactly makes the Greyhawk Campaign Setting

[Quasqueton]

Gary's influence on Greyhawk is much more than just Mordenkainen and Bigby.

Oh good lord, I know that. It was a joke.

Quasqueton

 

[diaglo]

Now, diaglo, you know that's not entirely true: the foundation for the GH Wars was laid in the Dragon Magazine article written by EGG and RJK, in particular these:



While it's likely than many older GH fans have issues with how those wars were detailed, executed, and carried out in GH Wars and FtA, it always seemed natural to me that the battles outlined in those articles and in EGG's "Artifact of Evil" novel would result in a continent-wide war.

wars in Greyhawk happen true enough.

but when others make the details it is like reading a parody.

 

[Orius]

So, why do the "old old school" people have problems with some of the 80's stuff in greyhawk?

It's not the 80's stuff they hate, Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes both were published in the early 90's...

Personally, I think a lot of it comes from a sort of loyalty to Gary. Greyhawk that isn't written by Gary (or Rob) isn't Greyhawk as far as they're concerened. Stuff like Castle Greyhawk didn't help either. Then with TSR supporting FR, the publication of the 2e rules and such, I think a lot of the old guard though Lorraine was doing everything she could to expunge Gary from D&D. In some ways, I think Greyhawk Wars and FtA was probably the straw that broke the camel's back.

Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't start playing D&D until after Greyhawk had pretty much died out in the 2e days, so it's all before my time. It's just the impression I get from reading the history of the game, opinions from the various fans and so on.

 

[rogueattorney]

Greyhawk that isn't written by Gary (or Rob) isn't Greyhawk as far as they're concerened.

Don't forget Len Lakofka.

Stuff like Castle Greyhawk didn't help either.

IMHO, it wasn't designed to help. Quite the opposite. If there has ever been a rpg product intentionally designed to tank, that was it.

....I think a lot of the old guard though Lorraine was doing everything she could to expunge Gary from D&D.

And you'd be correct in so thinking.

Truth be told, I missed the Greyhawk products the first time around. I really never saw the point of setting materials back in the day. (One of the big reasons that 2e drove me out of the game.) What I eventually realized is the big thing that was missing from 2e was all of the setting assumptions ground into the 1e rules, and that all of these setting assumptions were clearly, undeniably Greyhawk.

For me, it's not so much what "happened" in the Greyhawk Wars. It's that there was a product on the Greyhawk Wars in the first place. Yes, the original setting plus the articles in Dragon set the thing up. But it should have been up to the DM to carry it out in his own way. Basically, I'm an overarching meta-plot hater. The Time of Troubles and Wrath of the Immortals drove me out of the Realms and the Known World successively. Give me setting details and give me adventure hooks, but I will blow up my campaign when and where I feel like it, thank you.

R.A.

 

[grodog]

Oh good lord, I know that. It was a joke.

And quite a good one, I thought, given that Gary anagrammed himself and friends unto the Nth generation in Greyhawk

 

[jesseghfan]

Ok, I'm not going to dig out who came up with this (too much effort) and I'm not going to get it quite right, since it was a long time ago. But Greyhawk compared to the other worlds, according to Steve Miller or Jim Ward or Roger Moore or Rob Kuntz or Sean Reynolds or somebody TSRian on those wonderful AOL message board of old:

In Forgotten Realms, my 10th level party bursts through the door, swords drawn.
In Dragon Lance, my 10th level party bursts through the door, swords drawn, just like our ancestors did centuries years ago.
In Dark Sun, my 10th level party bursts through the door, swords drawn, and die. Again. Sigh.
In Ravenloft, my 10th level party burst through the door, swords drawn. Our hair turns white while we do, but we do it.
In Greyhawk, my 10th level party hires a thief to listen at the door and pick the lock, and a wizard to keep an eye on the thief.

I thought that pretty well captured it.

jesseGHfan

 

[jokamachi]

...and the cleric keeps an eye on the wizard.

 

[ecliptic]

I think the reason why people view Greyhawk as generic is because Greyhawk has influenced Dungeons & Dragons as a whole. But there is alot of depth in Greyhawk that isn't picked up by some.

 

[Faraer]

For me, the World of Greyhawk exists in Gary Gygax's particular voice and approach; his way of combining history, myth and modern fantasy fiction into something unique, which is AD&D and its assumed norms and style of play.

The post-Gygax materials don't have the same sensibility; they're like a home campaign that took the boxed set and went off in a different direction based on different sensibilities and assumptions. (Some of the later ones have done more to bring that feel back.) The objection to the Greyhawk WarsTM isn't just the shallow implementation, but the fact that it was made part of the official, advancing timeline rather than an optional campaign module.

That drearily bitter, repetitive, bigoted and malicious piece of Nitescreed's (which greatly overstates the active neutrality thing and includes many outright lies about the Realms, 'Elminster is famous for sending characters on their way' included) has done more to harm the setting than help it, I'm quite sure.

 

[haakon1]

Greyhawk by EGG has a strong "Good isn't really Good - Neutrality is better" theme, and the squabbling 'good' powers support this. EGG's heroes are Neutrals like Mordenkainen & Gord, Good is presented as shallow, rigid & up-its-own-a**, I think this derives from EGG being a lapsed Catholic while defining Greyhawk 'Good' more in Catholic terms rather than post-Enlightenment terms. Evil powers fighting each other rather than being monolithic, and often making deals with non-evil powers, is also a Greyhawk theme, yup.

Huh, ya learn something new everyday. I didn't realize Gygax was a lapsed Catholic. Tolkien, on the other hand, was quite unlapsed as I understand it, and C.S. Lewis was a super-serious convert. Not sure what that means . . . other than Mel Gibson rocks!