D&D 4E What From 4E and PF is Good for 5E?

ren1999

First Post
Here is a list of things that worked and did not work from 4th Edition and specific reasons why. Sometimes I'm talking about Pathfinder but I want to leave that vague as to not draw criticism from both sets of fans. I only recently started working with Pathfinder in order to compare it with 4th edition so we could get a nice 5th edition. Pathfinder's packaging and art and story content is so nice. But I thought that 4th edition had some really sensible mechanics.

HitPoints - constitution score + a static number, worked because I could always scale any monster for a specific level party so that the monster does just enough damage to make it very challenging. No more, were many 1st level characters dying in the first few rounds of combat because of their low hit points. Those days are gone and will not return.

Retraining of Powers - didn't work. Players refused to believe they would forget a power they learned. I let them keep the power and add it to a long list of known powers but subjected them to encounter and daily restrictions.

Encounter Powers - worked - because burst attacks really do too much damage to too many opponents and they should be limited during the fight. I always thought the game would be more interesting if the character could never use the same encounter power twice during an encounter. They would have to use another encounter they knew. There was no rule, but I encouraged using a variety of encounter powers.

Daily Powers - did not work - because players would justify an extended rest after every combat and be able to gain their daily powers again. These powers were often too strong to be used every encounter. Furthermore, those powers were hard to track. Encounter powers reset after every fight and were easy to track.

Automatic Damage and Half Damage - didn't work because players always demanded to roll when their hit points became critically low. I scraped that within the first few weeks of playing 4th edition. If players didn't accept auto hit and auto damages, monsters didn't either.

Skills - worked fairly well once we used a static DC table that was tailored to the level of the party in order to keep things challenging.

Death Rules - I actually like 5th editions version here. 4th edition's worked.

ability modifiers to both attack rolls and damage rolls - worked. I scaled all the monsters so I could use any monster and challenge any party.

fortitude, reflex and will, worked. But that was redundant. I am entirely backing all rolls being based on abilities and armor class dex vs dex, str vs ac, cha vs will, int vs int. I don't know about this 5th edition Magic Attack Bonus thing though.

Feats, Spells, Prayers, Features and Traits
too many redundant powers, chaotic and disorganized, hard to choose from, needed cleaning up and needed more power and variety including scaling. That's why I want 5th edition.

Some of the races were not popular. I always thought cat-folk would have made a good player race.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

A big win from both Pathfinder and 4E:
Everyone got something new besides hp for each level-up. You always had something to look forward to.

But this was also a liability as it accelerated the power climb.
 

4e-isms that D&D Next appears to have scrapped but were worth including:

- The Minor Action
- Static HP/level
- Self-contained monster entries (no spell lists)

I must disagree with you on the whole encounter powers thing. Encounter powers assume the encounter (not time) is the fundamental unit of combat. I love many things about 4e, but I was very happy to see the power structure (at-will/enc/daily) go away.
 


From Heroes of the Feywild, they had a lovely system where there were "Greater" versions of powers, allowing you to keep the same concept but still get better at using what you've always used, or to even pick up multiple instances of that same ability, but at different power levels so you couldn't abuse it as easily, all while not forcing you into a niche.

Similarly, while it was never really made much use of, 4E had a few magic items that either picked up new abilities at higher levels, or which had more interesting "rare" versions. A system where there is a common, uncommon, and rare version of many magical items, allowing you to power up your signature weapon over the course of the campaign, in a way that doesn't just add math bonuses, could be rather snazzy.
 
Last edited:

Archetypes from Pathfinder are the one thing I would definitely include. They are as pivotal to class as themes are to interesting character development in 4e. Both these ideas (archetypes and themes) are my favourite mechanics from each of these editions. They provide immediate variability to characters that would otherwise be too similar.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 


...

I must disagree with you on the whole encounter powers thing. Encounter powers assume the encounter (not time) is the fundamental unit of combat. I love many things about 4e, but I was very happy to see the power structure (at-will/enc/daily) go away.
As a gamist, I disagree. The think I really hate in 3e/Pathfinder is the pre-combat buffing phase and all the fiddly debuffs and buffs with different round duration you have to keep tracking. So as a duration, I really like "encounters".

As I like a bit of realism, an encounter limit for things logically based on fortitude (and maybe skill and are extraneous to perform), barbarian rage for example,, a times or rounds per encounter limit makes much more sense than a times per day (3e) or rounds per day (Pathfinder) limit.

With the resting structure in 5e at least for HP present, I see no reason to add some encounter abilities where they make sense.
 

In a game where random damage is rolled on a hit, is static hit points really that much of a benefit?
Yes it is, to keep the low rolling fighter's frustration down, once the high rolling rogue or wizard have more HP than the "meatshield".

I like randomness for play, not outside (character creation and level-up).
 

Remove ads

Top