What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, most people playing RPGs have a frame of reference for having MP or some other resource to spend to use abilities. With that in mind, you can probably build a beginner/casual-friendly character in most classes (Fury or Elementalist is probably the easiest) and they focus on just using Signature Abilities and big, simple, effective Heroic Abilities.

Would they be as effective as a somebody who pays attention 100% of the time, uses smart positioning, watches for triggers, and tactically plans with everyone? No, but they could have a blast just charging in, swinging, and ripping through enemies left and right

The question always is, do they? That's always the issue with that sort of thing; in games where the game actually rewards tactical thinking, do the people who don't not care (in which case, as you say, it doesn't really matter as long as they're still getting things done) or do they notice the difference and kind of resent it (in which case there's a fundamental problem)? I've seen both occur.

 

[Zetesofos]

The question always is, do they? That's always the issue with that sort of thing; in games where the game actually rewards tactical thinking, do the people who don't not care (in which case, as you say, it doesn't really matter as long as they're still getting things done) or do they notice the difference and kind of resent it (in which case there's a fundamental problem)? I've seen both occur.

I suppose that's up to the person. A game system won't tell you someone's emotional disposition.

 

[cranberry]

Our group calls that module The Abomination Closets.

That's definitely an issue. I can't believe they stuffed a large monster in a 3x3 room on the second level (trying to avoid spoilers).

That really limits tactics.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I suppose that's up to the person. A game system won't tell you someone's emotional disposition.

No, but its not something you can ignore potentially being a thing. You won't even necessarily know in advance if you've mostly played games with limited tactical buy-in. Heck, they may not know if that's been what you've run in the past.

 

[Enrahim]

The question always is, do they? That's always the issue with that sort of thing; in games where the game actually rewards tactical thinking, do the people who don't not care (in which case, as you say, it doesn't really matter as long as they're still getting things done) or do they notice the difference and kind of resent it (in which case there's a fundamental problem)? I've seen both occur.

Well, I guess it is logically impossible to both have a game that rewards tactical play, and where the causal player is rewarded exactly as much as the tactical player. What is possible is to limit the reward gap so it is less noticeable for the player not caring so much, while still being noticeable for the one caring. This is a tricky balancing act, and I am not sure how well DS does it. But it seem to do it better than certain other games..

 

[Campbell]

Well, I guess it is logically impossible to both have a game that rewards tactical play, and where the causal player is rewarded exactly as much as the tactical player. What is possible is to limit the reward gap so it is less noticeable for the player not caring so much, while still being noticeable for the one caring. This is a tricky balancing act, and I am not sure how well DS does it. But it seem to do it better than certain other games..

For players who are less interested in tactical play I think managing your abilities is actually going to be the less tricky part. The trickier part is that Draw Skill is a game where monsters will be pushing you around, inflicting conditions on you, creating difficult terrain, raising up walls, etc. If managing that sort of stuff is not fun you will likely not have fun.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well, I guess it is logically impossible to both have a game that rewards tactical play, and where the causal player is rewarded exactly as much as the tactical player. What is possible is to limit the reward gap so it is less noticeable for the player not caring so much, while still being noticeable for the one caring. This is a tricky balancing act, and I am not sure how well DS does it. But it seem to do it better than certain other games..

That was largely my point. My personal feeling is that the two pieces of string don't really meet in the middle, but how much that matters depends on the perspective of the players involved.

 

[Thomas Shey]

For players who are less interested in tactical play I think managing your abilities is actually going to be the less tricky part. The trickier part is that Draw Skill is a game where monsters will be pushing you around, inflicting conditions on you, creating difficult terrain, raising up walls, etc. If managing that sort of stuff is not fun you will likely not have fun.

Its certainly an issue, though how related is hard to tell. I do tend to think there's probably a higher ratio of people who dislike negative conditions imposed on their characters that frustrate actions (which, depending on the specifics, can include most of what you mention) among people who are more casual in their play approach, but that is, and probably can't be anything but, an intuition.

 

[zakael19]

The upside is that DS has a bias towards always letting you do something on a turn. It’s not very cinematic to fail a Save Ends roll and then go “welp.” So most of the conditions are “take a Bane on a power roll (unless)” or “only take one action” etc.

 

[Campbell]

The upside is that DS has a bias towards always letting you do something on a turn. It’s not very cinematic to fail a Save Ends roll and then go “welp.” So most of the conditions are “take a Bane on a power roll (unless)” or “only take one action” etc.

Yeah. I really appreciate them trying to make the Conditions in the game more interactive which I think should be more fun for both players and GMs. The lose your turn stuff is never really fun and not very tactical either.