D&D 5E What happened to the Hermaphrodites???

[Zak S]

Zak, you're right, sorry dude. I took what was posted in the links above as the way it is, rather than just one person's perspective. I should not have assumed that you and the RPGPundit are "pieces of work" with the lack of evidence presented. All I really know is somebody out there in the internetosphere doesn't like you, and, you disagree with their attacks on you. Sorry to pass along rumor and libel.

There are certainly jerks and "pieces of work" in the D&D community, just as there are in every community. But I see no evidence of a large and powerful "alt-right" movement within D&D fandom. I realize now that I also haven't seen any evidence of Zak S and RPGPundit being jerks, harassers, or otherwise.

Thanks!

It's pretty rare to see people check themselves on the internet--I'm impressed and I appreciate it.

 

[MechaPilot]

It's pretty rare to see people check themselves on the internet. . . .

Although I haven't followed any of the links, or the conversation stemming from them, I agree that Dire Bear should be commended for analyzing his(?) own behaviour and apologizing publicly if he found it lacking. Common courtesy is truly a rare thing to find online.

 

[Dire Bare]

I'm not simply going to take someone at their word that there is now a reason not to use a term that I have used in its proper place. Won't do it. There are far too many claims that this word or that word has now become a bad word for me to accept on its face that these claims are always justified.

Also, let's remember for hateful people who choose to denigrate someone because of their gender identity - any word that is used to express their gender identity will be used as a pejorative by hateful people. Hermaphrodite has a very clear meaning. If it is used in its proper context it is not a pejorative. Folks who are offended by it being used in its proper context may need to read a book or two.

If one person says to you, "Hey, don't use that term, it's offensive" . . . . and you can't find any backing that it is true . . . . okay.

But to ignore a group of people, especially those who are affected by the word, well, you are being stubborn at best, and at worst . . . .

Almost every slur was at one point a neutral word that had real meaning. We don't call people "retarded" anymore in a positive way, we (if we're white) don't use the n-word positively when referring to black people, the word "gay" has taken on new positive and negative meanings that differ from simply being "happy". Hermaphrodite, in the right context, is probably OK . . . but in a paragraph detailing a fictional mythic character in a game, it isn't really appropriate anymore. But, stick to your guns man, fight the good fight!

 

[MechaPilot]

I'm not simply going to take someone at their word that there is now a reason not to use a term that I have used in its proper place. Won't do it. There are far too many claims that this word or that word has now become a bad word for me to accept on its face that these claims are always justified.

Also, let's remember for hateful people who choose to denigrate someone because of their gender identity - any word that is used to express their gender identity will be used as a pejorative by hateful people. Hermaphrodite has a very clear meaning. If it is used in its proper context it is not a pejorative. Folks who are offended by it being used in its proper context may need to read a book or two.

You appear to have missed, or skipped, a key part of what I said: the bit about asking questions and trying to understand instead of having a knee-jerk "you can't tell me that's a bad word" reaction.

Also, I would hope that if someone was intersexed and told you that being called a hermaphrodite was offensive to them, that you would at least have enough understanding and empathy to not use that term to refer to that person, or to other intersexed people in that person's presence.

 

[MackMcMacky]

If one person says to you, "Hey, don't use that term, it's offensive" . . . . and you can't find any backing that it is true . . . . okay.

But to ignore a group of people, especially those who are affected by the word, well, you are being stubborn at best, and at worst . . . .

Almost every slur was at one point a neutral word that had real meaning. We don't call people "retarded" anymore in a positive way, we (if we're white) don't use the n-word positively when referring to black people, the word "gay" has taken on new positive and negative meanings that differ from simply being "happy". Hermaphrodite, in the right context, is probably OK . . . but in a paragraph detailing a fictional mythic character in a game, it isn't really appropriate anymore. But, stick to your guns man, fight the good fight!

Does the fictional mythic character have both male and female sex organs?

 

[MackMcMacky]

You appear to have missed, or skipped, a key part of what I said: the bit about asking questions and trying to understand instead of having a knee-jerk "you can't tell me that's a bad word" reaction.

Also, I would hope that if someone was intersexed and told you that being called a hermaphrodite was offensive to them, that you would at least have enough understanding and empathy to not use that term to refer to that person, or to other intersexed people in that person's presence.

I didn't miss anything. I qualified how far I would take your suggestion.
I have never used the word hermaphrodite to describe anyone so it isn't really going to come up in my life. I don't have a burning need to identify the gender identity of everyone I meet and categorize them. I just try to be nice, etc.

Really, how many people go around referring to another person as a hermaphrodite? The only time the word has come up in my life has been in the context of science, mythology, and D&D pseudo-mythology.

I am a respectful person but I am a skeptical person as well and I have every right to be skeptical given the nature of politics and groupthink in the world.

 

[jaelis]

I'm not simply going to take someone at their word that there is now a reason not to use a term that I have used in its proper place. Won't do it. There are far too many claims that this word or that word has now become a bad word for me to accept on its face that these claims are always justified.

Here is a reference to evaluate if you like: http://www.isna.org/faq/hermaphrodite
and the obligatory wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Hermaphrodite

 

[Dire Bare]

Does the fictional mythic character have both male and female sex organs?

Missing the point.

Does the character of Corellon in D&D literature have both a penis and a vagina? I don't care, as many aspects of D&D lore have been tweaked and changed over the years, why not this. Fairly certain that the first time Corellon was ever described specifically this way was the 5E blurb that started this thread. Corellon has long been described as androgynous and "indeterminate", but as a literal hermaphrodite? First time (I think). And soon after retracted with subsequent printings.

The goal here is not to describe Corellon with scientific accuracy, but to portray a mythic character that gender non-binary folks can identify with . . . not so much the character itself, but as an attempt to make the overall game more inclusive. If inclusivity is your goal, and you find that a word you used THINKING you were being inclusive is actually working against that very goal . . . . well, you change it.

Does hermaphrodite still have a positive or neutral use in certain contexts? Not really, if you followed the whole thread, the term intersex is preferred both by the LGBQT community AND the scientific community. So, why use it at all?

 

[MackMcMacky]

Missing the point.

Does the character of Corellon in D&D literature have both a penis and a vagina? I don't care, as many aspects of D&D lore have been tweaked and changed over the years, why not this. Fairly certain that the first time Corellon was ever described specifically this way was the 5E blurb that started this thread. Corellon has long been described as androgynous and "indeterminate", but as a literal hermaphrodite? First time (I think). And soon after retracted with subsequent printings.

The goal here is not to describe Corellon with scientific accuracy, but to portray a mythic character that gender non-binary folks can identify with . . . not so much the character itself, but as an attempt to make the overall game more inclusive. If inclusivity is your goal, and you find that a word you used THINKING you were being inclusive is actually working against that very goal . . . . well, you change it.

Does hermaphrodite still have a positive or neutral use in certain contexts? Not really, if you followed the whole thread, the term intersex is preferred both by the LGBQT community AND the scientific community. So, why use it at all?

Yes, hermaphrodite has a neutral use because that is how I and countless others have used it by its definition in relation to the subject of mythology, etc. Having read up on "intersex" vs. "hermaphrodite" it's pretty clear to me that hermaphrodite has a specific meaning in the context from which I read and intersex applies various other contexts.

Bottom line, a mythological character with both male and female organs being called a hermaphrodite fits in the context of the subject. And a fictional mythology following that practice emulates that practice. Just look up Hermaphroditus.

Context, context, context

 

[MackMcMacky]

Here is a reference to evaluate if you like: http://www.isna.org/faq/hermaphrodite
and the obligatory wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Hermaphrodite

Thank you, it certainly supports refraining from using hermaphrodite to describe actual human beings or fictional human beings.

However, mythological and pseudo-mythological deities have a different context.

Dungeons and Dragons was smart to remove the term "hermaphrodite" to avoid needless controversy. However, in the context it was used it should have been held as harmless.