What happened with Vampire?

Dethklok

First Post
Growing up, my impression was that Dungeons and Dragons, Call of Cthulhu, and Vampire the Masquerade were the "big three" games. D&D is quite obviously alive, and Cthuhlu is still around, but I don't see much going on with Vampire or the other World of Darkness games.

Am I mistaken to think that they fell into decline? If not, what do you think happened to make them fizzle out?
 

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I don't know the full story, but there were some interesting corporate shenanigans.

White wolf was chugging along - they'd gotten out a couple of their "New World of Darkness" titles (Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage in 2004 and 2005, for example)

White Wolf Studios merged with CCP Games (an Icelandic company, responsible for EVE Online) in 2006. They announced that a Vampire MMO was in the works.

Then, it seemed to me that publication slowed, with a couple more of the nWoD titles coming out, and then slowed to a crawl. They officially stopped production of the pen and paper game in 2012. (I assume CCP simply wasn't interested - they wanted the IP, not the tabletop business).

Then, Onyx Path (a company from White Wolf Creative Director Richard Thomas, founded in 2011) almost immediately became licensee for the classic and old White Wolf lines and Exalted (but not Mind's Eye Theatre).

Onyx Path is currently working on a series of "20th Anniversary Editions" for the various World of Darkness games...
 

Yeah, I have zero knowledge. But it seemed to me that the purchase by CCP (which produces EVE Online) was the end. I'm not sure why they purchased it. If there was a CRPG planned, I guess that explains it.
 

Onex path started out wanting to ride the coat tails of this whole '20th anniversary' idea. However it hit much harder then they thought...

From what I understand they didn't expect them to be as big as they were. I'm a V20 player who already is in a Mage game using those rules (and waiting for M20 as we speak).

It seems to me being the #2 dog for a while didn't help when times turned hard for WW though. They do Kickstarters and POD to keep costs down...
 

I don't know anything about the business side of things, but as a player, the game changed quite a bit when they switched to the d20 rules. The "new WoD" stuff just seemed like they finally admitted "defeat" - meaning: at the time, d20 was the top of the world, and anything that wasn't d20 didn't seem like it was going to survive (or at least be big), so they decided to bite the bullet (not intended to be a pun) and switch. Doing this sort of sucked the life out (again, not a pun) of the game somehow; it was like the designers didn't really care as much about the "new" source material, and sort of half-assed it. They reinvented themselves completely into a different direction, and didn't have quite as much of the "more social, less combat" flavor, somehow. Maybe. (Don't meant to start a WoD edition war, either; these are just my opinions!) At the same time, media as a whole had been over-saturated with vampire crap for the last decade, and the "sullen goth" look was going out of style. The early 2000s brought in new fads and new ideas. It just wasn't a high time for that genre.

That said, they re-released the old Vampire core book as a pdf-only download a couple years ago, and if you can look past some of the absolutely silly rules (looking at you, combat) it's still a great book. We've run two big Vampire games since that book came out and they've been some of the highlights of my entire gaming career. White Wolf still has respect in my book for being some of the first people to get the idea that a character can be much more interesting if defined by the question what is your personality as a core principle instead of what do you do for a living. Pretty much all the D&D-like clones I've ever played still don't seem to get this, in my opinion.
 

at the time, d20 was the top of the world, and anything that wasn't d20 didn't seem like it was going to survive (or at least be big), so they decided to bite the bullet (not intended to be a pun) and switch.

No, they didn't! Monte Cook did a one-book conversion of WoD for d20, published by WW in August 2007, but White Wolf itself did not adopt d20 as their base system. They have since published 4 games (nWoD Changeling, Mummy, Geist, and Hunter) using the normal WoD base mechanics.
 

Yep, the d20 thing was really just something they did due to popular demand (and quite possibly because they were able to get Monte to do it).

That said, I do think that the switch to the nWoD was indeed a big part of the reason for White Wolf's decline - it was a really bold move for them to wipe out the entirety of their existing settings and start over, and the mechanics are a distinct improvement, but the nWoD just never had the same magic to it that the old settings did. I suspect a lot of the interest in oWoD was tied up in their metaplot, so when they decided to get rid of that they just never quite recovered.
 

Growing up, my impression was that Dungeons and Dragons, Call of Cthulhu, and Vampire the Masquerade were the "big three" games. D&D is quite obviously alive, and Cthuhlu is still around, but I don't see much going on with Vampire or the other World of Darkness games.

Am I mistaken to think that they fell into decline? If not, what do you think happened to make them fizzle out?

Not so much fizzled as reached the logical conclusion of its publishing model.

The World of Darkness was selling roleplaying in a World of Darkness that got Bigger, Edgier, and Grimderper with each supplement. It was the setting they were selling, not the rules - to the point where the rules lead to a different playstyle from the games, and they'd accuse anyone who wanted to use what the rules actually did of "Rollplaying, not roleplaying". (Incidentally, this is what triggered The Forge - wanting games that did what they said on the tin). To maintain interest, with almost every supplement the metaplot and the NPCs had to be Bigger! Edgier! and Grimderper! than last time. There's only so many sudden-yet-inevitable-betrayals from Saulot and times you can nuke Antediluvians before the whole thing collapses in ridiculousness.

Which meant that White Wolf needed a new world. A new World of Darkness. They came out with it in 2004 and gave it better rules than the oWoD (which were not a selling point given that for a decade and a half they had been telling people to ignore the rules). It also had a cut down metaplot (which again was an improvement but not a selling point as the only people still buying White Wolf then were buying it for the metaplot). The stakes were lowered to personal horror, and the richness of the world - they lost however many supplements. This meant that the reaction to the nWoD was a general "meh" and edition wars that made 3e/4e seem friendly.

That said, there's some interesting material coming out right now for what is effectively WoD3 - the revised Vampire is getting back to its horror roots and came out just over a month ago, and Demon: The Descent was kickstarted a couple of months ago and comes out later this year. The new Convention: Void Engineers is excellent and less than six months old, but to illustrate how badly the nWoD did, the first nMage convention book came out in 2005 - Progenitors, Syndicate, and Void Engineers came out less than a year ago.
 

The stakes were lowered to personal horror, and the richness of the world - they lost however many supplements. This meant that the reaction to the nWoD was a general "meh"...

Yep. Which is sad, because some of that new material was very nice. I particularly enjoy the "Hunter: the Vigil" material.
 

No, they didn't!
Generally I would trust Umbran more than myself on matters of reference. I think I'm getting "Vampire Requiem" and that sort of "2nd edition" ruleset confused with the d20-based World of Darkness rules, or something... Needless to say, it's confusing - even for someone who liked the brand! All the same, whenever they released the new ruleset, they changed the setting (drastically) and also vampires just weren't as big in popular culture anymore. And although I might quibble a few points, pretty much what Neonchameleon said, too.

Sidebar: Interestingly, Apocalypse World and especially it's vampire-inclusive teenage daughter, Monsterheart, seem more similar to the Vampire style of play than anything else I've seen in a while. Plus, I think vampires are starting to come back (again: not a pun) in pop culture, so it might be that White Wolf (or whoever they are these days) could make a little money in that market again...
 
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