What I absolutely love about 4th edition thus far

[Fifth Element]

He gets wounded, exhausted and he bleeds.

And this makes him different from 4E characters how? 4E characters have a bloodied condition, for gosh sakes.

He also clearly recovered from those wounds between scenes, since he is always able to kick more ass in the next scene. Like he would get a "second wind", you could say.

 

[jeffhartsell]

The thing is that in fantasy heroes are most of the time normal persons who become heroes by doing heroic deeds while superheroes are by default special, more powerful than any of those normal people.

3E followed the first approach as PCs and NPCs were not different. The PCs had to do heroic things to become heroes. In 4E this is not necessary any more as the PCs start as heroes who can do things no NPC can do, you know like superheroes.

And imo that cheapens the game. The story isn't any more about normal persons who become famous with what they do, but about some mutants with superpowers.

Your character is an adventurer, a hero who sets out on epic quests for fortune and glory.

4e is not changing the core belief that characters are better than the average commoner. In fact, some NPCs are "better" than a typical hero PC. Nothing wrong with that either.

 

[Piratecat]

Something I find really interesting about 4e is that hit points don't necessarily measure physical damage, they measure the resolve of the character to stay up on his feet and fighting. Actual physical damage occurs, but isn't really tracked anywhere. This means that someone at full hit points may have healing injuries but has as much staying power as someone uninjured. Someone at 1 hp may be gutted, but inspiration from the warlord forces him back to his feet to fight, even if his innards are dangling out a hole in his belly.

It's a big disconnect for me when compared to 3e, but I think I like it in actual play.

 

[Hussar]

The thing is that in fantasy heroes are most of the time normal persons who become heroes by doing heroic deeds while superheroes are by default special, more powerful than any of those normal people.

This is going to heavily depend on what fantasy you read. Conan is hardly a normal person - last descendant of Atlantis and all that, for example. Elric is extremely powerful even before he picks up Stormbringer. As are most of Moorcock's heroes. Aragorn is not a normal human. Actually, about the only "normal" example of their race in LOTR is Sam. The list is pretty lengthy of fantasy heroes that are no normal people doing heroic deeds. I would say that most fantasy heroes are pretty much not normal people right out of the chute.

3E followed the first approach as PCs and NPCs were not different. The PCs had to do heroic things to become heroes. In 4E this is not necessary any more as the PCs start as heroes who can do things no NPC can do, you know like superheroes.

This is not true. PC's had twice the wealth of NPC's. PC's gained XP and NPC's did not (look at the cohort and follower rules). PC's were immune to a number of skills - diplomacy, intimidate. PC's were generated on higher baselines (usually at least Elite and usually quite higher, while most NPC's were not) and started with maximum hit points.

And imo that cheapens the game. The story isn't any more about normal persons who become famous with what they do, but about some mutants with superpowers.

The problem is, you only look at one side of the equation. Yes, PC's have apparently gained in power, but, then again, so have the bad guys. You have to compare the relative effectiveness of PC's against the challenges they face before you can say this.

+ Healing surges/Second wind
+ Encounter powers
+ Feats
+ Destiny

And John McCain, the guy who repeatedly gets the crap beaten out of him doesn't have those? Are you kidding? This is a guy who walks on broken glass in bare feet and then pulls the glass out and keeps on running. He gets the snot pounded out of hime repeatedly and then just shrugs it off. How is this not healing surges/second wind? Watch the movies again, you could EASILY model him using encounter powers/dailies/at wills.

 

[Family]

 

[Korgoth]

And John McCain, the guy who repeatedly gets the crap beaten out of him doesn't have those? Are you kidding? This is a guy who walks on broken glass in bare feet and then pulls the glass out and keeps on running. He gets the snot pounded out of hime repeatedly and then just shrugs it off. How is this not healing surges/second wind?

Yeah, he's a pretty cool dude. Dang liberal media!

 

[Piratecat]

And John McCain, the guy who repeatedly gets the crap beaten out of him doesn't have those? Are you kidding? This is a guy who walks on broken glass in bare feet and then pulls the glass out and keeps on running. He gets the snot pounded out of hime repeatedly and then just shrugs it off.

Hey, no politics, Mister!

Hee hee.

Perhaps you mean John McClane.

 

[hong]

And John McCain, the guy who repeatedly gets the crap beaten out of him doesn't have those?

...

Yeah, life in that North Vietnamese POW camp was no bed of roses, I can tell you!

 

[hong]

Oops, was that a dogpile?

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

In the first Die-Hard McCain was still down to earth, at least more as in the other movies (ok, maybe the 3rd one too). And while he has plot super powers (meaning he can't loose) the way he is displayed in the movies makes him different from the normal superhero crap. He gets wounded, exhausted and he bleeds. That makes him much more normal than some X-Men.

Emphasis mine.

I agree with this whole heartedly. It is also how I think that characters in 4e will end up being like. All of the changes that are bugging people about 4e just amount to giving the PCs "plot super powers". There has been a massive amount of protagonization (is that actually a word?) of the PCs, and I completely support this. All of the Everyman heroes in stories actually have this. John McLane is the favorite of this board, but many others have it as well. It is just the idea that, despite the odds, the characters prevail. It is not completely a foregone conclusion like in literature, but the PCs now have a slight edge. This edge isn't even exclusively a PC trait. The monsters can have it too. Someone mentioned the Orc second wind type ability. Elites get extra HP to keep them around longer. Solos get extra HP and extra actions. Any of them can be given action points, and the fundamental basis for monster design is "exception based". Give them anything that better prepares them for their intended role in your stories. This equates to giving the characters "plot super powers" in direct proportion to their importance to the story.

The PCs have not become more effective overall. They still are wounded, they can become exhausted, they can have their spirits broken for a while. They have just been liberated from some deprotagonizing (there I go again with made up words) elements inherent in previous editions. No need to have the mechanics explicitly tell you that a second wind can look like Hulk Hogan back in the WWF days when he Hulks out and comes back from a severe beating to win the match. (Sorry, this may be a bad examle because many people may respond that they don't want their beloved game to degenerate into a professional wrestling soap opera. This is valid, but the imagery is still aplicable to many genre, and is fun in most.) I think it will be much easier for my group to create the types and caliber of stories that I have always loved, and it is less likely that a random die roll will derail the fun of the story.