Dungeonosophy
Legend
Sounds good. Thanks for sharing. I'm especially into the sword & sorcery campaign sourcebook.
D&D 5E What I want: 17 books or book series (and two boxes) for a Third Golden Age
Sounds good. Thanks for sharing. I'm especially into the sword & sorcery campaign sourcebook.
Dungeonosophy
Legend
Okay, I respect where you're coming from.
I can see why some people liked 4E. I simply didn't muster the oomph to penetrate the new game mechanics.
I hear you. I feel you. What you said is eloquent.
The thing is--the splat has begun. There's the Adventurer's Handbook on the way.
Despite the OP seemingly being the exact opposite of your view, I actually agree with you. What I really want is the core rules itself to make homebrewing the default "expected" way of playing D&D, even to the extent of guiding new DMs to slap together adventure modules from different companies and draw their own regional map as a patchwork of whatever overland/wilderness adventures the DM happens to own. Instead of getting locked into the published campaign worlds.
I write about this in my Un-Setting proposal and my Worldbuilding as You Go proposal.
In an earlier thread I requested that the DMG explicitly suggest that the Sword Coast map from the Starter Set be used as the basis for each DM drawing their own continental map--with each homebrew world coincidentally having a "Sword Coast" and "Phandelver", but outside of that map, each DM's world is "expected" to be completely and wildly different. I suggested random continent name-, world name-, and campaign setting name-generator tables.
One DM's world is named Yoerth, another's is named Noreth. One has the War of the Lance take place on a world which uses the map of Faerun, but with completely different names; another DM's world is a stitched-together hodgepodge, with the Sword Coast as the basis, but with Freeport off the coast to the west, some BECMI-era Gazetteer country (say, Glantri, the Kingdom of Magic) to the south, and with Nentir Vale located to the north. One campaign is named "Silverlance" another is named "The Raven Lands".
How about that? Would you go for that?
My OP in this thread is more about what I'd like to see done with the D&D Multiverse mega-setting as such. I'd really like home-brew (homebrew is NOT the same thing as "generic") to become the default way for 5E. And, I'd like the D&D Multiverse mega-setting to flourish separately from that homebrew tradition.
Yes.
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Dungeonosophy
Legend
The purpose of my original post
The purpose of the OP is to offer an alternative, coherent trajectory for Fifth Edition which integrates and digests all that has already gone into building the D&D Multiverse.
I offer those 17 titles (10 of which would have two or more volumes) as one aficionado's small attempt to head off another repeat of the 60-some titles which were released from 2008 to 2014.
My list is short compared to this list of 4E products, which I cut-and-pasted from someone else's website:
[h=2]The Red Box[/h]The Red Box is a starter set, part of the Essentials lineup, designed to get people to start playing DnD 4E with a minimum of fuss. it includes the basic stuff to get things going: Player’s and Dungeon Master’s Booklets, a solo startup encounter, the "Twisted Halls" module, counters, dice, a foldup battlemap, simplified character sheets and power cards. The complaints I've read is that, while great for starting, it is also very limited, and once you want more it quickly gets obsoleted.
[h=2]Core Books[/h]
[h=2]Others[/h]Missing from this answer, that I know of, are
The purpose of the OP is to offer an alternative, coherent trajectory for Fifth Edition which integrates and digests all that has already gone into building the D&D Multiverse.
I offer those 17 titles (10 of which would have two or more volumes) as one aficionado's small attempt to head off another repeat of the 60-some titles which were released from 2008 to 2014.
My list is short compared to this list of 4E products, which I cut-and-pasted from someone else's website:
[h=2]The Red Box[/h]The Red Box is a starter set, part of the Essentials lineup, designed to get people to start playing DnD 4E with a minimum of fuss. it includes the basic stuff to get things going: Player’s and Dungeon Master’s Booklets, a solo startup encounter, the "Twisted Halls" module, counters, dice, a foldup battlemap, simplified character sheets and power cards. The complaints I've read is that, while great for starting, it is also very limited, and once you want more it quickly gets obsoleted.
[h=2]Core Books[/h]
- Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG): this manual and contains the basic ruleset a DM should know when setting up a DnD campaign.
- Dungeon Master's Kit: this Essentials rulebook is an equivalent to the DMG, updated with the latest (as of 2010) updates. Includes the Dungeon Master's Book, three pages of tokens, and the "Reavers of Harkenwold" two-part standalone module with printed maps.
- Player's Handbook (PHB): this rulebook covers every rule a player needs to know to play a campaign.
- Class Compendium: Heroes of the Fallen Lands: new builds for the most iconic classes: the cleric, the fighter, the rogue, and the wizard. Also presents expanded information and racial traits for some of the game’s most popular races, including dwarves, eladrin, elves, halflings, and humans. Even though this is an Essentials supplement, I include it here, for it seems to me like the equivalent to the PHB.
- Rules Compendium: This Essentials rulebook contains the rules of the game collected in one place, taking a campaign from 1st to 30th level.
- Monster Manual (MM): this rulebook is a list of the available monsters the DM can use in campaigns, with their stats and tips for setting up encounters.
- Monster Vault: this Essentials rulebook is an equivalent to the MM, but with all the errata corrected, rules updated, and it includes ten sheets of tokens and the "Cairn of the Winter King" standalone module, with battle maps.
- The DM Screen: a 4-page folded cheatsheet, a really useful item for the DM.
- Roleplaying Game Starter Set: This set is not the red box. It includes an introductory version of the 4th Edition rules, dice, map tiles, and an adventure for starting characters.
- Class Compendium: Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms: An Essentials series supplement including new builds for the game’s most popular classes: the druid, the paladin, the ranger, and the warlock. In addition it presents expanded information and racial traits for the dragonborn, drow, half-elf, half-orc, and tiefling races.
- Dungeon Master's Guide 2: this supplement gives advice and rules for campaigns, focusing on paragon tier campaigns especially.
- Player's Handbook 2: adds more builds and also the primal power source and the classes that use it: druid and barbarian
- Player's Handbook 3: adds even more builds. Also adds the psionic power source and classes that use it.
- Player's Option: Heroes of Shadow: focuses on characters that fight evil in ways that make others cringe. In addition to exploring the nature of the shadow power source, this book presents races, classes, feats, powers, and other options aimed at players hungry to play the archetypal antihero with a dark edge. TBP April 2011
- Player’s Handbook Races: Dragonborn: this supplement expands on the history and capabilities of the dragonborn race.
- Player’s Handbook Races: Tieflings: expands on the tiefling race, includes feats, powers, paragon paths, epic destinies and more.
- Martial Power: builds for fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords
- Martial Power 2: builds for fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords
- Arcane Power: provides new builds for the wizard, warlock, sorcerer, bard, and swordmage classes
- Primal Power: builds for barbarians, druids, shamans, and wardens
- Divine Power: builds for the cleric, paladin, invoker, and avenger classes, with tips on how to roleplay and perform better as a wielder of this power source.
- Psionic Power: focuses on heroes who channel the power of the mind. It provides new builds for the ardent, battlemind, monk, and psion classes, including new character powers, feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies.
- Monster Manual 2: more monsters
- Monster Manual 3: more monsters, a correction of the rules for older monsters(?)
- Player’s Strategy Guide: tips and tricks for improving your tactics, strategies and being an overall better player.
- Adventurer’s Vault: nearly a thousand magic items, weapons, tools, and other useful items.
- Adventurer’s Vault 2: hundreds of magic items, including legendary weapons and artifacts.
- Demonomicon: all you need to know on demons and their masters, the demon lords, to set up campaigns against them.
- Draconomicon 1: Chromatic Dragons: describes several varieties of dragons, including red, blue, green, black, and white dragons, as well as three new chromatic dragons.
- Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons: describes several varieties of dragons, including gold, silver, copper, iron, and adamantine dragons.
- Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead: explores the origins, tactics, myths, and lairs of undead creatures.
- Underdark: all you need to set campaigns in this realm: monsters, settings, hazards...
- Hammerfast: presents a fully detailed, ready-to-use dwarven town with all you need to set campaigns in a new location.
- Manual of the Planes: an overview of the new array of planes introduced by the 4th Ed.
- The Plane Above. Secrets of the Astral Sea: builds on the overview of the Astral Sea presented in the Manual of the Planes game supplement and explores the heavenly plane in greater detail.
- The Plane Below: Secrets of the Elemental Chaos: builds on the overview of the Elemental Chaos presented in the Manual of the Planes game supplement.
- Vor Rukoth: a fully detailed, ready-to-use fortress ruin to set campaigns in.
- Dungeon Delve: when you want to run quick mini-dungeons, the "delves" provided will enable you to patch up a series of encounters.
- Dungeon Tiles Master Sets. Part of the Essentials series, these are three master sets of Dungeon Tiles (The Dungeon, The City, and The Wilderness) that let you create encounter areas for any adventure.
- HS1 The Slaying Stone: a standalone adventure for Level 1 players set in the Nentir Vale.
- HS2 Orcs of Stonefang Pass: a standalone adventure for level 4 characters, pitches the heroes against orcish hordes that threaten to isolate Winterhaven.
- HS1 Reavers of Harkenwold: an adventure for level 2 players, included inside the Essentials Dungeon Master's kit.
- Cairn of the Winter King: a standalone adventure for level 4 characters, included inside the Essentials Monster Vault boxed set.
- Revenge of the Giants: a standalone "super-adventure" for paragon tier characters.
- Tomb of Horrors: a remake of the classic module, designed for characters of 10th–22nd level. You should know what Tomb of Horrors is about.
- H1 Keep on the Shadowfell: an adventure for Level 1 players, takes them from level 1 to 3 investigating the surroundings of Winterhaven and the titular crypt in the Nentir Vale. Part of a campaign. Freely downloadable (sans maps) from wotc.
- H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth: the followup to H1, this adventure takes Level 4 adventurers to Level 6.
- H3 Pyramid of Shadows: a D&D adventure designed for heroic-tier characters of levels 7-10, this adventure completes the Heroic tier of campaigns.
- P1 King of the Trollhaunt Warrens: paragon tier adventure that gets characters from 11th to 13th level.
- P2 Demon Queen’s Enclave: characters here start on level 14 and advance to level 16.
- P3 Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress: designed to take characters from 17th to 20th level.
- E1 Death's Reach: Epic tier adventure designed to advance players from the 21st to 23rd level, has players tracking terrible wrongs in the Shadowfell.
- E2 Kingdom of the Ghouls: designed to take characters from 24th to 26th level, this adventure describes a terrible plot to usurp the Raven Queen's powers over death.
- E3 Prince of Undeath: the epic adventure comes to a close against Orcus, who is trying to usurp the Raven Queen's throne. This module takes adventurers from 27th to 30th level.
[h=2]Others[/h]Missing from this answer, that I know of, are
- Most dungeon tiles sets: these are booklets with ready-made maps and tiles that you can use to set encounters in.
- Books from the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun and other settings.
- Compendiums from Dungeon Magazine or Dragon Magazine, these pack the yearly issues from the magazines mentioned.
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prosfilaes
Adventurer
Where's the audience for this? If I'm going for a fairly generic world, going for one of the old standbys works just fine. There's all the culture details for you to work from, there's all the notes written up so that players can find out what's going on, in-depth pantheons are available, places to originate from, etc. Why bother writing it up myself if all I'm going to end up with is a stitched together hodgepodge? (And why on Earth would anyone try to transport the War of the Lance to Faerûn? At what point would that be interesting enough to justify the work?) Most GMs tweak their world, but if you're going to make your own world, make your own world.
Stormonu
Legend
For those saying the coins are silly, they already exist for games. I don't see that doing prop coins for the various D&D realms would be a bad thing. I myself would like to pick up a Franklin Mint style "coins of Greyhawk" or "coins of Dragonlance" set - at the very least a Steel Piece mock-up. And I bet play-use coins wouldn't do to bad either.
As for the books, sadly I think reducing all of 30 years of D&D into 17 books just wouldn't be feasible. They'd be impossible to pick up. Even things like the Ultimate Tome of Horrors, a Necromancer product that combines five monster manuals into one hefty tome isn't something I'd want to carry from game to game (great reference, excellent weapon to clobber a thief - but I ain't hauling it from game center to game center).
I think how WotC is handling things like the A0-A4 Slavelord hardback and S1-S4 hardback are much better ways to handle putting old material back into folks hands. WEG did this with its Star Wars adventures back in the day, combining several adventures into larger softback books (with some editing and a few pieces of new/revised art).
I wouldn't mind seeing the likes of the Magic Item or Spell Compendiums of 2E being put back out in 8½ X 11 format, with the new items from 3E & 4E added in in 5E format, but I still think WotC would have to break those out into several volumes just because a single book would be far too cumbersome by itself.
I'd most especially love it if they could come out with 5E versions of the major campaign sets - in boxes, like the Starter set. Just the base campaign worlds mind you - perhaps with the box having enough room to stuff a few later softbound purchases into it.
As for the books, sadly I think reducing all of 30 years of D&D into 17 books just wouldn't be feasible. They'd be impossible to pick up. Even things like the Ultimate Tome of Horrors, a Necromancer product that combines five monster manuals into one hefty tome isn't something I'd want to carry from game to game (great reference, excellent weapon to clobber a thief - but I ain't hauling it from game center to game center).
I think how WotC is handling things like the A0-A4 Slavelord hardback and S1-S4 hardback are much better ways to handle putting old material back into folks hands. WEG did this with its Star Wars adventures back in the day, combining several adventures into larger softback books (with some editing and a few pieces of new/revised art).
I wouldn't mind seeing the likes of the Magic Item or Spell Compendiums of 2E being put back out in 8½ X 11 format, with the new items from 3E & 4E added in in 5E format, but I still think WotC would have to break those out into several volumes just because a single book would be far too cumbersome by itself.
I'd most especially love it if they could come out with 5E versions of the major campaign sets - in boxes, like the Starter set. Just the base campaign worlds mind you - perhaps with the box having enough room to stuff a few later softbound purchases into it.
doctorhook
Legend
What you are describing is precisely the Nentir Vale, except that that setting wasn't heretical to Forgotten Realms fans like your suggestion is.
doctorhook
Legend
[MENTION=6688049]DnDPhilmont[/MENTION], you seem like a fascinating character, but you're gaining a reputation as "that guy who posts threads making outlandish demands for the future of 5E, as well as suggestions for products that few people seem interested in." I had to go through you post history, but I was able to confirm that you were the fellow who wanted every gaming group to write, edit, format, and publish a "nigh-professional quality" guidebook to their tabletop campaign world. Moreover, most of these threads seem to go the same way: first you post your esoteric suggestions, then the conversation turns to a philosophy lecture about the merits of Free Culture, then you speculate about the mental life of your critics (and sometimes accuse them of being corporate shills to WotC).
...Did you come here from Something Awful?
...Did you come here from Something Awful?
Dungeonosophy
Legend
***blink, blink, blink***
Where's the audience for an edition of D&D which explicitly guides each DM to invent their own world (with worldbuilding rules built into the DMG), and/or stitch together a world out of whatever D&D books they already own, instead of being guided to buy 60-some titles, most of which are set in the Forgotten Realms?
Wow, what has D&D culture come to?
That's what I call corporatist-shaped imagination. What a pity the minds of the newer generations of gamers were shaped in such as a way as to express disdain and incredulity at the suggestion of hardwiring a homebrew culture into the game. I prefer that didn't sound insulting. In real life, I'm sure I'd like gaming with you (I recognize that message board posts are a narrow picture), yet I am here to stand against the mindest which you just expressed.
I understand you use "generic" to mean "medieval fantasy".
Gah, I don't want it all laid out ahead of time. I want to invent the world as I go along. (And at the same time, I'd like the published D&D Multiverse to flourish as a coherent setting for novels, and for DM's who like that...and maybe as worlds for my party to visit. Krynn and Toril (and even my beloved Mystara) are nice places to visit, but I don't want to couch my campaign there.)
I suggest a hodgepodge only in these two cases:
1) Making use of whatever RPG books we already happen to own, regardless of which edition, and which company, and which world they're set. For example, besides the 5e Basic Rules, my entire game library consists of the Pathfinder Beginner Box, a True20 book, two Blue Rose books, a One Ring book, Dragon Age, and DCC RPG. That's plenty. I started a new 5E campaign last week which begins in Sandpoint (from Golarion)...but the rest of the map is not going to be Golarion. The rest of the map is going to be pieced together from whatever adventures are contained in those other books I own. (Here's the campaign log so far--two TPKs in one night!)
2) If one sees a product that one really likes, but which isn't set in the same world, then it'd make sense to just stitch its map to your world map. For example, sticking Freeport in the ocean west of the Sword Coast.
The example I gave of Glantri and Nentir Vale stitched to the Sword Coast assumes that those were the books the DM already owned, or he saw the Glantri PDF and a 4E Nentir Vale book, and bought them because he liked them. So he stitched them to the Sword Coast.
I suggest four options to be included in the DMG:
1) Invent an entire world from scratch, with in-depth pantheons, world map, and one or more unique themes, so that the geography of the world and the trajectory of the campaign are more-or-less laid out from the start.
2) The same, but randomly generated by rolling on worldbuilding tables. (Like how scif-fi rpgs often have a planetary generator.) Roll for campaign setting themes too. ("Roll d% three times: Okay, our world is a gothic horror theme, with a Roman Empire-style civilization, where gnomes are the primary race). Roll for world names ("Jarth", "Grynn", "Aveir"). Roll for continent names ("Maerun", "Yoerik", "Ferilia"). Roll for campaign setting names. ("Bluehawk", "The Forgotten Sun", "Azure Realms")
3) Use one of the published settings of the D&D Multiverse: Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and so forth. Though I like the published D&D worlds, it is obvious that these do tend to become "brands" which suck people into following the canon of a world. I know that sounds somewhat negative. And I know, of course, that people are "free" to modify the world. Yet the continuity of a published setting does take on a life of its own which is not necessarily in line with the venerable culture of homebrew worldbuilding.
4) Piece together a world which is gradually stitched together from whatever adventures one happens to own, and which are only stitched together in the course of actual play (instead of being layed out ahead of time.) This is method I'm most interested in.
Here's why: someone bought the Starter Set. So they ran their characters through the Phandelver adventure. So the "World" consists only of the Sword Coast. Then they found a map of Faerun on the internet, and used that shape for their world map. But they put their own names on the map, because they wanted to make their world different. They decided to use the Celtic pantheon for the gods of this world. Then the 5E War of the Lance adventure path came out, which included an appendix for converting all of the adventure to each of the published worlds (which I suggest be including in all 5E adventures, at least as a web enhancement). He likes the story, so he bought the book, and used the Forgotten Realms conversion notes to place the events on his own map.
That's an either-or dichotomy:
A) Either use the Forgotten Realms (or one of the other published worlds) pretty much exactly as written, though with a few DM tweaks.
or
B) Invent an entire world whole-cloth, with its own pantheon, all new names--even to the extent that one is writing as if one were a copyright lawyer, making sure that no name or concept could be the basis for being accused of plagarism (which is how professionalized authors have to be in our corporatist culture). Don't use any published adventures either. Hand-write all adventures from scratch.
I'm suggesting a fourfold spectrum with more options, more guidance, and more nuance than that twofold mindset.
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Dungeonosophy
Legend
I do admire what you say here. I hadn't thought of that. Yes, the acceptance of tabletop pencil & paper roleplay as a worthy and widespread form of play would be a beautiful aspect of a True Golden Age.
I remember when I visited Lake Geneva, I stopped at the Chamber of Commerce to ask directions. I got to talking with the woman at the desk, and asked her about the history of TSR and gaming in Lake Geneva. She looked at me and said: "Are you one of them?"
It was sorta creepy.
Dungeonosophy
Legend
You're right: those would need to be multiple volumes. Now that you mention it, that would be too thick for a single book!
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