D&D 5E What If? Marketing D&D in Asia

[Scrivener of Doom]

We've been straying off-topic in this thread so I thought I better fork it before the mods decide to do it anyway.

A few comments have been made about marketing D&D to Asia and I thought I would throw out a few questions:

1. How would you do it?
2. Bearing in mind that Asia is not a monoculture, how would you do it in different countries?
3. Do you think there's any potential?
4. Why hasn't Asia already embraced TTRPGs?

 

[Zardnaar]

We've been straying off-topic in this thread so I thought I better fork it before the mods decide to do it anyway.

A few comments have been made about marketing D&D to Asia and I thought I would throw out a few questions:

1. How would you do it?
2. Bearing in mind that Asia is not a monoculture, how would you do it in different countries?
3. Do you think there's any potential?
4. Why hasn't Asia already embraced TTRPGs?

1. Not sure.
2. Just make a one size fits all product, probably use Chinese a lot.
3. Always potential
4. Probably a cultural thing. They seem to prefer console based RPGs or RTS and a lot of Asian nations still do not have a large middle class as such. I was in an Asian based clan out of Singapore and they seem to prefer online games. That being said they are starting to run conventions over there now.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION],

Thanks for your reply.

In relation to potential and your comment about an absent middle class, most Asian nations actually do have a significant middle class even if it is not as wealthy as say the middle class in Australia, NZ, or some of the European nations (or the US when it had a significant middle class). Sure, the Philippines doesn't really have a middle class - generations of massive corruption a real unemployment rate of around 60% will do that to you - but Singapore certainly does.

Anyway, looking at question 1 after a little bit of thought, I wonder if the answer lies in using TTRPGs as a means of teaching English? I know there are a few English teachers in Asia who post here and on RPG.net from time to time who use it with their students. Hopefully one or more of them will contribute their thoughts.

 

[dd.stevenson]

For perspective, I teach at a very conservative private high school in the decaying countryside north of Tokyo. This is my sixth year out here.

--Non-traditional board games aren't all that popular over here. So things like Go and Mahjong are considered worth one's time; other board games are considered childish pastimes. Which means that D&D's best current "in" ("hey, it's like a board game but more awesome!") isn't a great sell.
--As a market segment, nerdy Japanese high school boys are a poor match for the uncertainty, the implied individualism, the personal responsibility, the required gregariousness, and the risk of humiliation and failure that come with the most common D&D playstyles. TTRPGs have, in my opinion, a much better shot at the teenage female market segment in this country.
--Japanese high school students don't have loads regular of free time, except for on the train. Unless it's situated to compete with Monster Hunter, D&D doesn't really have a good shot at getting played regularly by these students.

Of course, this is all just based on what I've seen, not numbers or surveys. I'm aware of some figures that back up my instincts about board games and train game time, but otherwise I'm going on instinct. I'd be interested to here what others out here have to say on this matter.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

Thanks for your observations, [MENTION=6683099]dd.stevenson[/MENTION].

--Non-traditional board games aren't all that popular over here. So things like Go and Mahjong are considered worth one's time; other board games are considered childish pastimes. Which means that D&D's best current "in" ("hey, it's like a board game but more awesome!") isn't a great sell.

I was thinking about something similar in the context of Singapore where I suspect parents would be very worried about a hobby like D&D which has the potential to consume study time. (Of course, MMORPGs also have the potential to consume a lot of time and Singapore parents and the nanny state seem to be very aware of this.)

(snip) As a market segment, nerdy Japanese high school boys are a poor match for the uncertainty, the implied individualism, the personal responsibility, the required gregariousness, and the risk of humiliation and failure that come with the most common D&D playstyles. TTRPGs have, in my opinion, a much better shot at the teenage female market segment in this country. (snip)

That parallels my own concerns about trying it out with my wife's family. The tradition of personal responsibility is not strong here (the Philippines) either. Fortunately, the gregariousness is here but this isn't an Asian country culturally, only geographically.

(snip) Japanese high school students don't have loads regular of free time, except for on the train. Unless it's situated to compete with Monster Hunter, D&D doesn't really have a good shot at getting played regularly by these students. (snip)

Yeah, this parallels my own gut feeling on the topic. The Philippines is different because of massive unemployment - half of all real jobs are actually the workers you see in other countries otherwise the real unemployment rate is around 60% - but otherwise Asian countries are about preparing to enter the workforce and then actually participating in the workforce. That means there's not the time to get into a game like D&D which, on the part of the DM at very least, does require to time to learn, master, and prepare.

In that context, it does make sense to take a brand like D&D which clearly has some value - or, at the very least, potential value - and try and transform it into non-TTRPG products that will find a market in Asia which is now, effectively, the world's economic hub.

Now, if they can nail the new D&D movie, that has enormous potential in Asia! However, it may not translate to a renaissance for the RPG.

(snip) Of course, this is all just based on what I've seen, not numbers or surveys. I'm aware of some figures that back up my instincts about board games and train game time, but otherwise I'm going on instinct. I'd be interested to here what others out here have to say on this matter.

Honestly, I think this sort of topic can only be examined on the basis of anecdotal evidence and gut feelings because I don't think the statistical work has been done.

More thoughts?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

We've been straying off-topic in this thread so I thought I better fork it before the mods decide to do it anyway.

A few comments have been made about marketing D&D to Asia and I thought I would throw out a few questions:

1. How would you do it?
2. Bearing in mind that Asia is not a monoculture, how would you do it in different countries?
3. Do you think there's any potential?
4. Why hasn't Asia already embraced TTRPGs?

1. The first step would be to tablet-ize or phone-ize the RPGs in question. If you need dice, paper and character sheets, you're probably dead in the water already.

2. I think this would be something one could only meaningfully answer after significant market research. I imagine tailoring the art/visual style might be a good first step. But one has to be careful that you don't get away from the game's actual appeal by doing that (in many cases something "foreign" may actually be more appealing than something tailored).

3. Yes, but it's hard to say how much, and I think the potential is much smaller if it's totally trad, unless you can somehow turn it into a fad.

4. Japan produces TT RPGs. I don't know how big the market is, but it does make it's own TT RPGs, and they are full-colour glossy affairs, as far as I can tell. Korea doesn't seem to produce it's own TT RPGs, but produces fantastic quantities of fantasy artwork that is very trad underneath the manga influence. It also apparently has a large expat RPG community, and someone there is already using a TT RPG to teach english (links below). I don't know about China.

As for "why hasn't it embraced them?", I'm pretty sure that the main answer is "they weren't very available there in the 1970s and 1980s". It's very very clear that Japanese and Korean CPRGs and MMORPGs have some pretty heavy D&D influence (particularly AD&D), and Chinese games have similar traits, but with a much strong "Chinese culture" aspect. So someone was playing that stuff way back when, and picking up the influences (I mean, just look at the D&D arcade games, which were clearly created by someone, in Japan, with a real grasp on what D&D is and how to translate it to a side-scrolling beat-em-up). It just seems like it was a relatively small number of people.

With Japan, as dd.stevenson notes, time and space are going to be big issues - so I'd expect you'd need something semi-virtual, where people didn't have to be physically together, to get much purchase there. Technology is the answer to that.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

I was hoping you would chop in, [MENTION=18]Ruin Explorer[/MENTION], as it was your comments that essentially prompted this forked thread.

1. The first step would be to tablet-ize or phone-ize the RPGs in question. If you need dice, paper and character sheets, you're probably dead in the water already. (snip)

Agreed.

(snip) 2. I think this would be something one could only meaningfully answer after significant market research. I imagine tailoring the art/visual style might be a good first step. But one has to be careful that you don't get away from the game's actual appeal by doing that (in many cases something "foreign" may actually be more appealing than something tailored). (snip)

IME/IMO (ie, completely anecdotally), the art isn't that big a deal. "Foreign" is already often perceived to be better in many Asian countries - it's "reverse racism" - and the trend toward less realistic looking weapons and armour from 3E onwards probably appeals to the anime crowd.

As for market research, I definitely agree with that. Clearly, any product you want to sell you want to be able to sell in China but who really understands the Chinese markets, plural?

(snip) 3. Yes, but it's hard to say how much, and I think the potential is much smaller if it's totally trad, unless you can somehow turn it into a fad. (snip)

I've experienced a fad in Asia and it's nothing like anything I have experienced in the West.

When I first went to live in Singapore in 1999 McDonald's began offering Hello Kitty-branded bride-and-groom dolls with a national theme over a period of weeks. By the fifth week or so, it had become a fad and, at 9:30pm the night before, 9% of the population of Singapore began queueing outside McDonald's outlets waiting for the 5:00am opening so as to be able to buy a breakfast meal - most of which were literally thrown in the rubbish - and get these stupid dolls.

9% of the population of the wealthiest and best-educated population in Asia. That's the power of a fad in a collectivist society. Imagine if D&D could do something like that?

(BTW, McDonald's was forced by the government to print a public apology to the people of Singapore in the aftermath of this event and then, in lieu of actual dolls, hand out vouchers which could be exchanged for these stupid dolls from the National Stadium on a single day a month or so later. I do believe the government got it wrong: the people of Singapore should published a national apology to McDonald's, but I digress....)

(snip) 4. Japan produces TT RPGs. I don't know how big the market is, but it does make it's own TT RPGs, and they are full-colour glossy affairs, as far as I can tell. Korea doesn't seem to produce it's own TT RPGs, but produces fantastic quantities of fantasy artwork that is very trad underneath the manga influence. It also apparently has a large expat RPG community, and someone there is already using a TT RPG to teach english (links below). I don't know about China. (snip

And that's a rather timely reminder that Asian markets are definitely not homogenous.

(snip) As for "why hasn't it embraced them?", I'm pretty sure that the main answer is "they weren't very available there in the 1970s and 1980s". It's very very clear that Japanese and Korean CPRGs and MMORPGs have some pretty heavy D&D influence (particularly AD&D), and Chinese games have similar traits, but with a much strong "Chinese culture" aspect. So someone was playing that stuff way back when, and picking up the influences (I mean, just look at the D&D arcade games, which were clearly created by someone, in Japan, with a real grasp on what D&D is and how to translate it to a side-scrolling beat-em-up). It just seems like it was a relatively small number of people.

With Japan, as dd.stevenson notes, time and space are going to be big issues - so I'd expect you'd need something semi-virtual, where people didn't have to be physically together, to get much purchase there. Technology is the answer to that.

Yeah, without putting words in your mouth, you seem to be implying a similar conclusion: these are probably not markets for the traditional P&P TT RPG.

 

[beej]

I'd love to join in this conversation, since I'm Filipino and definitely middle class. But I'm out of the house right now so my comment is a more kneejerk reaction:

Where did 60% come from? We have an unemployment problem but it's not THAT bad.





(Will hopefully post something more meaningful later.)

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

I'd love to join in this conversation, since I'm Filipino and definitely middle class. But I'm out of the house right now so my comment is a more kneejerk reaction:

Where did 60% come from? We have an unemployment problem but it's not THAT bad. (snip)

I explained the 60% by PM as it involves politics and the forums have a "no politics" rule.

(snip) (Will hopefully post something more meaningful later.)

Cool. I look forward to your comments, particularly as you're already an RPG customer in Asia.

 

[Umbran]

4. Why hasn't Asia already embraced TTRPGs?

While others have made some good points, I'll add the following:

Most ttRPG offerings to date have been linked to fairly Euro- and American-centric themes and tropes, linked to Western media, literature, legend and mythologies. Much like literature tends to be popular only within the culture that spawns the work in question, I would expect the same of RPGs. When Asian authors produce a game as strongly linked to Asian culture as D&D is linked to Western culture, you might see it catch on, and probably not before that.