What if we removed the half-level bonus to everything?

[DracoSuave]

A new encounter power is hardly a small deal, tho. It's an additional moderately heavy strike, so you can take down monsters faster, and you'll feel its effect every battle.

 

[Asmor]

Well, let me put it this way. When I hit level 2, I got to choose a new feat, all my defenses and attack value went up by one, and I got a utility power. When I hit level three, I took a new encounter power and thought "...that's it?". When I will hit level four, I get a new feat, a +1 increase to two stats, and a bonus to all my defenses and attack scores.

Personally, I only find the things you actually get to choose to be interesting. I.e. feats and powers, and to a lesser extent ability score points.

The level 11 and 21 ability score increases, at least, get points for being very powerful and rare. But overall, increasing my abilities, even when I get to choose them, isn't terrible exciting.

But a +1 every two levels isn't interesting to me. It's just a fact. Your bonus is a function of level, f(x)=floor(x/2).

At level 2, you get a feat and a utility power. At level 3, you get an encounter. At level 4, you get ability score increases and a feat. 5, you get a daily. 6, feat, 7, encounter, 8, utility and feat, 9, daily, ...

12 -> 13 is dull. A new power that gives me new capabilities is exciting!

 

[Saeviomagy]

1) You get +1 magic items with properties at level 1, not level 6.
2) It's 1/5 levels, not 1/6.
3) You'd have to shave off 7/10ths of a monster's attack bonus, not 2/3rds, not accounting for level 1.
4) The math is too stupid to attempt with each monster for hps. Too much fiddling algebra.
5) Is it more fun for the players?

1) At the beginning of first level, you don't have any magic. By the end of 5th, some members of the party have some appropriate items, and some have items that are a step ahead. Certainly people don't start decked out with a +1 to every defense and attack.
2) You're right.
3) The difference between 0.6666 and 0.7 is a pretty minimal difference.
4) I recommend that the magical bonuses to damage stay in (primarily because otherwise there's not a significant difference between a sword and a magic sword, and that runs pretty counter to most fantasy stories.
5) I think getting rid of the majority of the static bonus equipment will make the game more fun. Magic weapons get a reprieve because causing more damage is generally regarded as a fun thing.

 

[DracoSuave]

By the end of 5th level, a 5th level party should have:

1 Level 2 item, 2 Level 3 items, 3 Level 4 items, 4 Level 5 items, 4 Level 6 items, 3 Level 7 items, 2 Level 8 items, and 1 Level 9 item, for a total of 24 items. Magic bonuses take up 15 of those items.
Of these 24 items, only 10 of those items are +1 items, thusly 14 of them must be +2 or better. You start getting +2 items at level -2- not at level -6-. Check the treasure tables.

As well, the same party has access to enough funds to round out the difference.

Yes, it is -very- reasonable to expect +1 items -well- before level 5. At level 5, you don't -get- +1 items any more. It is, in fact, unreasonable NOT to expect it.

 

[DanmarLOK]

When I increase my skills, I don't really feel like I'm advancing. Even though I'm one point stealthier than I was a moment ago, I know that I'm not going to be doing any sleuthing; that's always going to be the rogue's job.

QFT

Obviously some people think this topic is worth considering and other are neutral and other people, no I don't think so. As for the extreme ends especially the negative ones why so... enthusiastic about your stance? How someone house rules their game is only of any importance and has any impact on their group. Everyone else is free to ignore or absorb any rule at all that they wish.

On a personal note, I'm willing to entertain the thought for a variety of reasons which have been covered or which appeal to me and I won't bore you with the why. Otehr than perhaps for me personally this would go a long way toward making the skill challenge system more... palatable.

If skills go up at the same time that DC's go up, what's really changed?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yes, it is -very- reasonable to expect +1 items -well- before level 5. At level 5, you don't -get- +1 items any more. It is, in fact, unreasonable NOT to expect it.

Your previous post seemed to suggest that the party would be fully equipped in +1 items at level 1. I meant to point out that that wasn't the case.

At the beginning of level 5, the party have overall a +1 item for each slot. They don't individually: some have no +1 item for a slot, some have a +2 instead.

You said that 15 of 24 items were numerical bonus items. Further to that, 14 of the 24 are +2 or better (note - none of them have a +3 numerical bonus).

That means that the average bonus on a given party member is only ~1.2

That's by the END of level 5. At the beginning, it's even closer to +1.

So - if we add a 1/5 levels to players (or subtract 1/5 levels from monsters), we'll end up at the same balance point.

 

[Eldorian]

Anything I didn't consider?

Yes. A 30th level fighter in +6 Elderscale armor and Heavy Shield has 31 AC, the first level bandit is gonna have a hard time hitting that with his +6.

What you're doing is just rescaling how much level matters, not removing it all together. It still maters, but in terms of gear available to PCs only. I do kinda like the idea tho, as it does extend the usefulness of monsters.

And Orcus would have ac 32. A kolbold minion has considerably less, so don't be mouthing off at the OP before you actually look at what he said =P

What you're basically trying to modify is the scaling due to level. I think what may be a better curve for you is to remove/halve the bonuses of magic items, and to take the 1/2 level down to 1/4 or even 1/tier. (if you remove bonuses on magic items, remember to add 1/5 level to damage)

 

[DracoSuave]

Your previous post seemed to suggest that the party would be fully equipped in +1 items at level 1. I meant to point out that that wasn't the case.

I don't expect them to be fully equipped in +1 items at all. By the time they have fill up those slots they -have to be- filling them with +2 items, simply because they -no longer get- +1 slots by the time 10 of the 15 slots of a party are filled.

It's called the Pidgeonhole Law. Once you run out of space, something else has to be filled.

At the beginning of level 5, the party have overall a +1 item for each slot. They don't individually: some have no +1 item for a slot, some have a +2 instead.

You said that 15 of 24 items were numerical bonus items. Further to that, 14 of the 24 are +2 or better (note - none of them have a +3 numerical bonus).

That means that the average bonus on a given party member is only ~1.2

I don't know where you get your math from. I said there are 15 numerical slots to fill. At maximum, 10 of those are +1 bonuses. That means -minimum- 5 of those must be +2 bonuses. 10+10/15=20/15=4/3= an absolute minimum of 1.33 as average bonus if, AND ONLY IF, 9 of the remaining level 6 or higher items are not numerical bonus items. If any of those remaining are, that average goes up. Mathematics says it -cannot be lower- than 1.33. It is probably higher.

That's by the END of level 5. At the beginning, it's even closer to +1.

So - if we add a 1/5 levels to players (or subtract 1/5 levels from monsters), we'll end up at the same balance point.

That's assuming you're not using those higher level magic slots for weapons for the party, and never do so until the end of the game. The second you start using those slots for weapons the power curve jumps up signifigantly.

Remember, you get +2 items starting -AT LEVEL 2-. By the time you hit level 6, you can be fully decked out in +2 items and have slots to spare for other trinkets.

 

[DracoSuave]

QFT

Obviously some people think this topic is worth considering and other are neutral and other people, no I don't think so. As for the extreme ends especially the negative ones why so... enthusiastic about your stance? How someone house rules their game is only of any importance and has any impact on their group. Everyone else is free to ignore or absorb any rule at all that they wish.

On a personal note, I'm willing to entertain the thought for a variety of reasons which have been covered or which appeal to me and I won't bore you with the why. Otehr than perhaps for me personally this would go a long way toward making the skill challenge system more... palatable.

If skills go up at the same time that DC's go up, what's really changed?

Nothing's changed. However DCs don't go up. This is incorrect thinking.

What goes up is the level of challenge you face.

Level 1, a moderate challenge might be climbing a wooden wall.

Level 11, a moderate challenge might be climbing a stone wall. The afformentioned wooden wall does not go up in challenge at all. It's still the same DC, and you're a lot more likely to scale it. But you're not dealing with wooden walls any more, the challenges you face are tougher to reflect the fact you're out there doing bigger and badder things.

Level 21, a moderate challenge might be climbing a stone wall without handholds that's been polished, using only a corner where you can grip on tightly. The previous stonewall? Easier. The wooden wall? Child's play.

The idea that you actually have to accomplish more and more difficult things as you gain level is -hardly- a foreign concept to the game. It's been around since 1st edition. The frikken idea of monster levels is based around it.

 

[Asmor]

It's called the Pidgeonhole Law. Once you run out of space, something else has to be filled.

1. That's what she said!

2. The pigeonhole principle states that, given n categories and m > n element to be categorized, at least one category will have at least two items. Alternatively, it is impossible to categorize each element uniquely.

In other words, the pigeonhole principle doesn't prove anything, e.g. if all your GM ever gave out was magic hats, you'd never fill your neck, weapon or armor slots with any +x items.