What if you brought 4E back to 1970?

[Umbran]

Good heavens, are you ignorant!

And good heavens, are you rude!

Folks, no matter how correct you feel you are, no matter how much factual evidence you have, those do not equate to a license to treat people poorly.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I think you have to read the Silmarillion a much less popular book than the LOTR to catch that though and you have to have better memory than I

"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; "

Gives us orcs atleast as a reproducing race... half-orcs a corruption instigated later by Saruman (perhaps as spies who had to take on a bigger role after he lost the majority of his power) is less absolute.

For some of us, one being specifically described as the son of another in The Hobbit was clue enough.

 

[Hairfoot]

The orcs as corrupted elves thing from Tolkien is given more due than it deserves in my opinion. Christopher Tolkien included a statement to that effect when he did The Silmarillion with Guy Gavriel Kay from his father's notes, but he later admitted that he thought the entire Silmarillion project was a mistake.

What Christopher Tolkien thinks doesn't really matter. His father, to my knowledge, didn't include any clear reference to orcs being anything but elves corrupted by Sauron.

I'd like to be wrong. I very much like the notion of orcs as feral, ubiquitous enemies, but that conception appears to be a D&D thing, not Tolkien.

 

[billd91]

As for the "Star Wars" comment, I stand by it. Yes, I WAS there, yes it broke records and a lot of that was "repeat offenders". Without hijacking, it was revolutionary compared to the "space operas" that proceeded it (and many that followed). But it didn't have the largest opening for a movie, even though it was the top grossing film of that week, it ranks very low on the all time opening weekend ranks (somewhere arouns 1400, IIRC, so it took time to build that head of steam. Of course finding great figures is pretty hard now that many analysts lump the all time gross in the figures. (which make it one of the top grossing films of all time.)

By comparison - Jaws, released 2 years earlier, did 7 times the business on opening weekend, but grossed only about 1/2 as much total during it's year of release (US figures - worldwide it did slightly better).

Well, let's keep things in perspective here. Jaws maybe grossed $5.5 million more in the opening week than Star Wars but it opened in nearly 10x as many theaters (Star Wars opened in only 43).

Star Wars does rank fairly low in opening box office in the list of opening week records, that's true. But the hooplah over opening weekends is virtually nothing like what it was in 1977. Star Wars only hit over 1000 screens more than 2 months after it went into limited release. And that's about a quarter of what most opening weekend leaders opened on.

It's worth noting that Star Wars, when looking at average gross per screen for opening weekend, kicks most of the all time opening weekend leaders' butts. And that's in 1977 dollars. It may not have spread to all markets as fast (probably the effect of the studio or theaters being wary of the untested sci-fi movie), but where it opened it was an instant and big hit.

The slow burn was in distribution. Not in fan response.

 

[billd91]

What Christopher Tolkien thinks doesn't really matter. His father, to my knowledge, didn't include any clear reference to orcs being anything but elves corrupted by Sauron.

I'd like to be wrong. I very much like the notion of orcs as feral, ubiquitous enemies, but that conception appears to be a D&D thing, not Tolkien.

Actually, I believe Tolkien incorporates both ideas, corrupted elves in the Silmarillion and in creatures capable of multiplying without newly corrupting elves in Lord of the Rings. While we have no idea exactly how they do it, they do refer to orcs multiplying again with the return of Sauron to his dark tower. And that's good enough for having feral, ubiquitous enemies.

 

[Raven Crowking]

While we have no idea exactly how they do it

Bolg, son of Azog, seems to offer a pretty clear idea. If I mention Michael, son of Daniel, how do you imagine Michael came into the world?!?!

 

[Garthanos]

Well even if they were corrupted elves .. both of them having been an elf before ... they could still technically have been unable to reproduce after transformation and one could have been the parent of the other - It was definite in the Silmarillion that they reproduced like men and elves and the corruption of elves was the only origin presented...

Myth does have fairly strong connections between elf and goblin... and sidhe coming in a dark and light flavor... The Alfar that served more as Tolkeins elven inspiration are not however connected in that way that I know of... so.

 

[Garthanos]

If I mention Michael, son of Daniel, how do you imagine Michael came into the world?!?!

Well if they are angels I assume they decided to take on an emotional connection ;-) and that it has nothing to do with physical heritage that you and I would use as the basis for the relationship .....

 

[Raven Crowking]

So, if Tolkein mentions young goblin children, then they could just be corrupted elf children, right?

Exactly what evidence would you accept that orcs reproduce?

 

[billd91]

Bolg, son of Azog, seems to offer a pretty clear idea. If I mention Michael, son of Daniel, how do you imagine Michael came into the world?!?!

Do they have some kind of corrupted elf-woman acting as a brood mare? Or can multiple generations now breed true? Do they give live birth? Are they spawned by some other kind of weird process akin to parthenogenesis? And why is it significant that orcs are "multiplying again" when Sauron returns to Mordor to set up shop? Are orc fertility rates affected by Sauron waxing in power?

The fact of the matter is we can only make assumptions since, in the books, we've never seen a female orc and have never delved that far into orcish society.