What is 3.0 & 3.5 missing that previous editions had?

[Desdichado]

For what it's worth; I'm an old fart who doesn't like Led Zeppelin.

 

[jgbrowning]

However, I don't think the current game was designed with young, edgy, Fred Durst fanboys in mind. If they did, I think they would be going against their own
research. Here is a quote:

"3. Adventure Gaming is an adult hobby
More than half the market for hobby games is older than 19. There is a
substantial “dip” in incidence of play from 16-18. "

Further:

"It may also indicate that the existing group of players is aging and not
being refreshed by younger players at the same rate as in previous years."

Also, this survey was conducted in 1999. Those who responded and are still playing are roughly 4 years older now.... Even then the largest demographic was 25-35 year olds, although we are given no information concerning 35+ers.

joe b.

 

[diaglo]

You forgot "Operational Exhaustion."

Shellshock - Battle Fatigue - Then Operational Exhaustion, then Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Old George Carlin Skit.

i knew someone would remember the skit.

 

[jasamcarl]

For what it's worth; I'm an old fart who doesn't like Led Zeppelin.

Good man.

 

[francisca]

Also, this survey was conducted in 1999. Those who responded and are still playing are roughly 4 years older now.... Even then the largest demographic was 25-35 year olds, although we are given no information concerning 35+ers.

joe b.

yeah, and we're the guys with the money to spend....

speaking of which, you got $10 from me today for the Ecology book.....can I get your digital signature on it?

 

[diaglo]

For what it's worth; I'm an old fart who doesn't like Led Zeppelin.

you probably also didn't worship satan or sacrifice small animals or go into the steam tunnels beneath Michigan State to game.

 

[Desdichado]

you probably also didn't worship satan or sacrifice small animals or go into the steam tunnels beneath Michigan State to game.

Pshaw! I only moved to Michigan in the last four years; the steam tunnels under Kyle Field at Texas A&M were much better anyway. Besides, who wants cold, icy steam tunnels? No atmosphere at all...

 

[buzzard]

So tell me, what 3 or 4 things in AD&D have turned into 15 things in D&D? If you used to just run with AC, HD, HP, and Attack in AD&D, what's stopping you from doing the same in D&D? And unless you're advancing or adding levels to a creature (which is just an option, not an order), what detail is left out of the base stats block in the MM?

So it was OK to be unfair to the players in AD&D, but in D&D you *have* to be fair? Yeah, I'm actually kind of glad the D&D police have stepped up their patrols of game groups.

Quick, give me the stats of an ankeg, an ettin, and a tiefling from AD&D. If you can't give me the AD&D stats, then nothing has changed for you. If you can give me the AD&D stats, then how come you can't learn them now for D&D3?

You know what I used to do when I needed these stats? I'd open the MM and look them up. But now adays, damn, I *still* have to open a book and look on the page. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

You are basically complaining that the new edition of the game gives you too much info and options. You, personally, don't need all those options, and don't want to have to remember all that new information. Fine, ignore it. But it is foolish to complain about being given too much info.

"Remember when a fast food restaurant only served hamburgers and french fries? Yeah, things were much better then. The new restaurants make you read the whole freakin' menu and choose between hamburgers, hot dogs, chicken, salads, french fries, baked potatoes, onion rings. . . sigh. I used to be able to just walk in and tell the cashier I wanted one thing, but now there are a dozen things on the menu to have to consider."

The whole reason I spoke up in response to your post is because you tried to pull the same trick that I've seen lots of anti-D&D3'ers use: make absurd hyperboles about how complicated and difficult the game has gotten because it has given you more information and more options -- that most people have asked for over the years.

"I used to be able to color a picture in just a couple minutes with my box of 8 crayons. But now, with the new 64 crayon boxes, it takes me hours to color a dragon. And my goodness, but look at how detailed the line drawings of the dragons are now. I used to just could color the whole thing with two colors, but now I need a dozen colors to make the dragon look pretty."

Quasqueton

While I'm certainly in the '3rd is better camp' you simply aren't seeing what he's saying, or your are being disingenious. Monsters were simpler in 2nd Ed (or 1st for that matter). You even acknoledge that. It's not simply an issue of more available information, it's a matter of more information to assimilate to be able to run the monster in an effective fashion.

For example, I ran a LG recently but hadn't looked up the Chuul in advance. I missed out on one of their special feats because I hadn't been careful enough. It wasn't a matter of memorizing to hit, HP, AC and saves. There's lots more tricky aspects of monsters these days. With grapple, power attack, and a wide variety of other abilites you simply have to know more details of the monsters to run them fairly. The challenges represented by the monsters takes all this into account, and if you blow it off CRs don't really mean much.

How about a simple example-
Giant Purple Worm: 2nd edition- if it hits you on a bite, it swallows whole and you have to cut your way out.
3rd Ed, it has improved grab on the bite and you end up in a grapple situation. Thus you need to know the grapple numbers. If you fail your grapple check you then get swallowed and have to cut your way out. Luckily 3.5 included grapple modifiers for all monsters rather that forcing you to calculate them if necessary.

Can you in any way justify saying that you have to know less information in 3rd? I think not. Now I prefer 3rd in the above situation since it is more fair and give you a shot at not being swallowed. However by no means is it as simple.

buzzard

 

[buzzard]

Pshaw! I only moved to Michigan in the last four years; the steam tunnels under Kyle Field at Texas A&M were much better anyway. Besides, who wants cold, icy steam tunnels? No atmosphere at all...

You've been in steam tunnels and you say they're 'cold, icy'? Your steam tunnels must not have been used for their stated purpose. The ones back at CMU were pretty damn warm, especially during the winter.

buzzard

 

[jasamcarl]

While I'm certainly in the '3rd is better camp' you simply aren't seeing what he's saying, or your are being disingenious. Monsters were simpler in 2nd Ed (or 1st for that matter). You even acknoledge that. It's not simply an issue of more available information, it's a matter of more information to assimilate to be able to run the monster in an effective fashion.

For example, I ran a LG recently but hadn't looked up the Chuul in advance. I missed out on one of their special feats because I hadn't been careful enough. It wasn't a matter of memorizing to hit, HP, AC and saves. There's lots more tricky aspects of monsters these days. With grapple, power attack, and a wide variety of other abilites you simply have to know more details of the monsters to run them fairly. The challenges represented by the monsters takes all this into account, and if you blow it off CRs don't really mean much.

How about a simple example-
Giant Purple Worm: 2nd edition- if it hits you on a bite, it swallows whole and you have to cut your way out.
3rd Ed, it has improved grab on the bite and you end up in a grapple situation. Thus you need to know the grapple numbers. If you fail your grapple check you then get swallowed and have to cut your way out. Luckily 3.5 included grapple modifiers for all monsters rather that forcing you to calculate them if necessary.

Can you in any way justify saying that you have to know less information in 3rd? I think not. Now I prefer 3rd in the above situation since it is more fair and give you a shot at not being swallowed. However by no means is it as simple.

buzzard

I think you are missing what he is saying. Earlier editions didn't have a CR system, nor did they specify how to adjudicate certain actions. THOSE ARE ALL OPTIONAL. As are the feats and pretty much everything you describe as complex. Now, I will agree this is all neccessary if you want to run a complete game. But that's the rub, isn't it, because earlier editions simply weren't complete games; balance meant nothing. You could easily throw all those details out the window and easily have the same or better experience as you had with 2e.