What is 3.0 & 3.5 missing that previous editions had?

I like a lot of the art for 2ed more than 3rd. In 2ed ed, you didn't just get "action shots" that is all that comes up in 3rd. Yes, most of the pictures were of people in action poses, but you had backgrounds and pictures of people outside of combat. It was much more dynamic.

Aside from art, 2ed edition has nothing on 3.5. I don't know why people say it takes so much longer to create a character in the new editions. Unless you start at a higher level where I have to tinker around with equipment, I can roll up a fully stated character in about 3 minutes.
 

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Piratecat said:
Dark Jezter et al, this thread is about the good stuff that previous editions of the game had. Please don't hijack it to bitch about the things you don't like.

Very well, my post has been removed.

In my defense, though. I was not trying to "hijack" this thread. Neither the original post nor the thread title stated that we were only allowed to talk about the good things about previous editions, and I was far from the first person to bitch about things I didn't like.
 
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2) Ease of GMing in 2E. Creating encounters takes a lot longer in 3E. In the day, I could spend a good 1/2 hour with the Monster manual and some grid paper and come up with hours of fun. Now I spend hours figuring out stats for kobolds, skills for mimics and the reflex save for bug bears.
This is number 1 for me too. I truly, roooly hope it gets corrected come 4E, because I consider it 3E's biggest achilles heel - what is good in rules for building PCs isn't in building NPCs. Players want options and customisability, whereas in NPCs you want speed of creation. It's so bad that people are relying upon computer programs - including at least one of the designers, from what I gather - to get around it. This should not be necessary...
but as a whole, they wanted a tone that took the game material itself less seriously than the older editions, and they succeeded, IMO.
You're seriously suggesting that 3E artwork takes itself less seriously than that in say, the 1E DMG or MM? I think former editions had black and white going for it, which is a medium which suits D&D better. For evidence, look at WAR's black and white work compared to his colour work, or the 3E draft pics compared to the final product in terms of evoking atmosphere...no competition, IMO. The fantasy for me gets lost somewhere in the posing and the photoshop artifacts.
 


Monsters that were described as more then just stats. I would love for a future (very very very far in the future) edition to trim down on all the useless silly clutter monsters that D&D has accumulated in the core Monster Manual and add some personality and details to the critters it keeps in it.
 

The powergamer in me misses the ability score setting (not enhancing) items such as Gauntlets of Dexterity (sets Dexterity to 18), Gauntlets of Ogre Power (sets Strength to 18/00) and Girdles of Giant Strength (sets Strength to between 19 and 24, depending on type). They really allowed you to massively enhance your physical ability scores.

Every fighter-type absolutely has to have one of these items. They were that good.
 

Looking back at 1e (I skipped 2e - yuck), here is what I find missing:

1. The voice of Gary Gygax. This really permeated the books and gave it all a certain mood and feel that I enjoyed. The books were almost like crusty old arcana from another age themselves, which helped to take you into a different mindset. The more modern voice of 3e does not invoke the same mental state for me.

2. The more classical look and feel. Much of the new artwork (with notable exceptions such as swekel and sardinha) has more modern influence - tattoos, black leather, spikes, punk hairstyles, emaciated monsters. Traditional castles and knights in shining armor are gone. I know that many don't agree with my preference, but for me personally this heavily detracts from my ability to "click" with the game. I also think that the heavily saturated color palettes don't help either. They lend a comic book vibe. I prefer a more subtle color palette.

3. More adherence to classical tropes in the races and monsters. Halfings were hobbits with a different name. Gnomes were little forest guys. Now halflings are some strange kind of unique D&D thing and gnomes are Krynnish rennaisance inventors. The illustrations also reflect this shift in direction.

4. Planescape was a seismological shift in the D&D cosmology with implications that were reworked as more integral/core in 3e. What was once something really odd and suggestive of Dante, Ptolomy, the Golden Bough, the Eddas, and other mythological sources became something more like an urban cosmopolitanism that suggests Star Wars more than anything else. I know that lots of people like Planescape, and while I think it's pretty nifty on it's own I really don't like feedback effect it's had on standard D&D.

5. More freeform advancement/rewards. Things were more ad-hoc regarding what you threw at players and how quickly they advanced. In 3e, the baseline, while it may be deviated from, strongly encourages a very linear, predictable, and fixed progression. It even goes so far as to regulate the amount of magic items you have, and makes characters feel less competent if they deviate from the baseline. Of course rule 0 is there, but nonetheless players come to expect this because it's in the rules.

6. A more abstract system of combat and power representation. In 1e, combat was abstract and open to wide descriptive liberties. 3e shortens the combat round to represent every swing of the sword and also introduces a little bit of power-up/special street fighter move combo effect created primarily by the advent of the feat system. While the feat system has it's advantages, in my opinion these very specific moves increase video game feel at the expense of literary feel.

7. Strong character archetypes. The simple choices of 1e presented simple and bold archetypes. I feel this is weakened in 3e most notably by the proliferation of prestige classes. With 100 archetypes, each one individually starts to feel less archetypal.

8. Diaglo's blood rituals and cultists is also on the money for me. You have to go to d20 publishers for the good stuff. :)

Some of this is just cosmetic stuff, but I don't discount the value of an evocative atmosphere. I do think it has an ephemeral effect on play - certain preconceptions that everyone brings to the table. Overall I get more of an old fantasy/literary vibe with 1e - Leiber, Howard, Tolkein, Mallory, El Cid - and that's really where my heart is. I don't deny that much of it is nostalgia, and I also know that far more people prefer the new style than not.
 

D&D 3 and 3.5 lack the simplicity (or illusion of simplicity) that Classic D&D had. The game runs slower now than Classic D&D, which in my experience was easier to play and easier to run, (probably owing to the light amount of rules).
 

Remathilis said:
PC1: My character is Drizzo the Dark Elf
PC2: Cool. Our party just fought some dark elves. They have these awesome spells and some amazing magic resistance. Your character is going first against the mage.
PC1: Uh... actually, I don't have any of those abilities. I'm a PC.

d20 eliminated this by the concept of LAs.

So did 2E. I believe it was in the Complete Book of Humanoids that they attached XP penalties to different races. Ogre Mages got hit hard but then again they can fly, polymorph, and take gaseous form. I want to say that Drow got hit with a 15-20% XP penalty. In 2E you could partially offset it with a high stat in your Prime Req.

Artwork wise, some folks have been saying how 1E artwork focused on a scene rather than an individual character and I have to agree. Looking at a painting of a scene made you feel like you were observing an adventure in progress. The new artwork focuses on characters (mostly the iconic ones) and so feels too much like a comic book.

Pants said:
The 1st Edition Fiend Folio was utter dreck in the art department.

Gee, 1E Fiend Folio was one of my faves!
 
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MerricB said:
Anyone who starts talking about D&D losing its "soul" really needs to start thinking about better words for what they mean.


did you even read what i wrote? and what the topic of this thread is?

i wrote about the context of what it meant to play the previous editions at the time of their introduction. no where does my statement say that D&D lost its soul. i described the soul of D&D at the time. the games are different. just like my "soul" is different from yours.

i stand by what i posted.

It's a word used by people who want to put down 3E (or 2E) without actually going past "I don't like the game", and used in a fashion to denigrate the many, many people who play those games.

i play this game. i know many gamers who play this game. i try and play with friends or make friends of those i game with. i think you'd better be careful about putting words or ideas in my statements. i posted simplicity... read my words in a simple fashion. they have no hidden meaning.
 

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