What is 3.0 & 3.5 missing that previous editions had?

[MerricB]

As much as I hate to admit it, I do happen to agree with diaglo, especially the Soul part.

Anyone who starts talking about D&D losing its "soul" really needs to start thinking about better words for what they mean.

It's a word used by people who want to put down 3E (or 2E) without actually going past "I don't like the game", and used in a fashion to denigrate the many, many people who play those games.

 

[kamosa]

Things I miss in no particular order

1) 1E DMG. The random layout, the lack of an index, the feeling that if you looked long enough Gygax would have added a random table that would help you find the meaning of life. The book required a PHD in gaming to find anything, but it felt...tome like. Random disease chart anyone.

2) Ease of GMing in 2E. Creating encounters takes a lot longer in 3E. In the day, I could spend a good 1/2 hour with the Monster manual and some grid paper and come up with hours of fun. Now I spend hours figuring out stats for kobolds, skills for mimics and the reflex save for bug bears.

3) 2nd Edition clerics. They were different and cooler then 3e clerics.

4) OA monks. Why didn't they bring in the martial arts styles into the 3E monk? Such a cool idea and a great way to customize a character.

5) The Tome of Magic. What a great expansion on the game. Law, Chaos, Numbers and Travel where great spheres that aren't really represented in 3E.

 

[cybertalus]

I miss the look and the feel of older editions. Not just the art, but the types of paper used, the way the books felt to hold, the scent and texture of the paper. I miss books that are laid out like books, not like final projects from the School of Gaudy Web Design (complete with background art that interferes with legibility). But the non-glossy paper I miss the most of anything from previous editions.

I miss supplements that are more fluff than crunch. I miss the notion that you can mention an NPC in a supplement and not be required to provide a full stat block which uses up a quarter of a page or more. I miss life without prestige classes. I miss elves that live a really freaking long time.

I miss looking forward to new releases. I miss anxiously awaiting the arrival of Dragon and Dungeon magazines.

Rules-wise, I prefer the 3.0 rules over any other edition, but I do miss the notion that different character classes advance at different rates. In fact for all that "balance" is the mantra in 3.x, I haven't seen anyone comment on the fact that one way to balance a weaker class would be for it to advance more quickly. I also miss a few spells from earlier editions.

As much as anything else though, I think I miss things about the world and myself which have changed since the time I played the older editions.

Having said all that, if I was thrown back in time to relive my teenage years, I wouldn't be able to play D&D until the year 2000 rolled around again, because there are way more things in 3E that I now can't live without than things I miss about 1E/2E.

 

[Remathilis]

Sorry, I gotta rant a bit about this.

Imbalance? The DM runs the game! I don't need rule imbalance to kill of the party if I so choose. Nowhere does it say in any of the books that I MUST use CRs to determine what monsters to throw at the party so if I throw a Great Wyrm Red Dragon at the party then that act is totally supported by the rules and I didn't use any "imbalance" kill them off. I'm so fed up with this "Players vs. DM" mentality. I get tired of players who shoot holes in a DM's plot because it doesn't abide by "THE RULES" and then complain about the mediocre story. You all know the type and they typically metagame. They'll analyze what level spellcasters are by the number of dice you roll for a Magic Missile attack or Fireball and then keep track of how much damage said caster has taken. The instant the caster has taken more hit point damage than their "calculation" has allowed for then they'll "helpfully" point it out to the DM and the rest of the players. If the DM doesn't take care of it to their advantage or at least spit out a reason for it then they'll get ticked off and sulk for the rest of the game. I view the game as a communal storytelling session. The players and the DM all play to tell a story. If the DM takes advantage of a rule to make the story interesting then so be it. I'd certainly hope that everyone's DM doesn't actively try to play against the Players.

Sorry for the rant. I'm just sick and tired of that mentality.

I hear you, so I think I should re-explain what I meant.

In second edition (and previous editions, no doubt) there were almost two sets of rules, the DM's and the PCs. If a variant of the rule existed, the better (stronger) version would always go to the DM, the Weaker to the PC.

EXAMPLE: Drow elves in 2e had unique and special powers, including magic resistance, spells, and superior infravision. If they were monsters. A PC dark elf was not supposed to have any of these traits, and in fact was an elf with onyx skin and mobs following him.

PC1: My character is Drizzo the Dark Elf
PC2: Cool. Our party just fought some dark elves. They have these awesome spells and some amazing magic resistance. Your character is going first against the mage.
PC1: Uh... actually, I don't have any of those abilities. I'm a PC.

d20 eliminated this by the concept of LAs. Some people (me personally) like the fact the all dark elves have the same traits and aren't distinguished into PC/NPC camps. Other prefer the fact the NPCs could do things PC's couldn't

What your talking about (and I've seen it before) is what we at my group call "co-DMing". When a player thinks he knows as much or more about the situation the party is facing (don't worry, I'm sure thats not a real hydra. There is no way a DM would make us face one, our EL is too low.) That is annoying to no-end.

I guess I should have claified my statement better.

 

[Pants]

What I miss?

The newness. Back when I feared goblins. Back when I didn't know what in hell a 'Bugbear' was. Back when I didn't have the AC and HP of most monsters memorized. Back when I wasn't the 'default' DM and playing the drunken human fighter with a pentient for boorishness was the pinnacle for roleplaying.

I also miss the monster 'Ecologies' in the MM.

Basically, I don't miss any rules related stuff nor much of anything from the old editions.

The way that I see it, most of the stuff that people miss is just nostalgia kicking them in the groin.

I started playing in 2nd Edition and when I look back at all the 1st edition (and some 2nd edition) art and I compare it to 3rd edition's art, I realized something. EVERY edition has bad art. The 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual had some real bad doozies. The 1st Edition Fiend Folio was utter dreck in the art department. Savage Species and Races of Faerun have some pretty vomit inducing stuff as well.

Basically, I think most people miss the excitement of playing something that was new. I know I do.

 

[Olive]

I miss...

* The world defined by the class/race restrictions and level limits.

Really? I'm astonished...

 

[Cannibal_Kender]

It probably just is nostalga. I know that the rules are better in third. I guess it was just the newness of playing d&d for the first time.

 

[MerricB]

Really? I'm astonished...

hehe. I'll clarify that a bit.

I think 3E's solution is far, far, far superior. There were two reasons for the 1E restrictions: the world it wanted to create, and game balance reasons.

3E makes it unnecessary to use any restrictions on the class/race combinations: the game remains balanced and fun regardless. 3E allows you to choose the restrictions to make the game you want.

However, this "anything goes" affair in the core rules means a divergence in style for many of the support products, so that the core world isn't quite unified enough.

Cheers!

 

[Corinth]

I've been in the hobby for 22 years. I've played OD&D, AD&D1 and AD&D2. I miss nothing about the previous editions; the current edition is the best-designed, smoothest-running, most fair, most just and more user-friendly edition of the game yet published. It's clean, slick and handles like a dream given form. The plug-and-play capability that the d20 System game engine provides makes customization for specific needs easy and safe to execute for the end user. I will never again play any of the previous editions, and I'm even reluctant to play 3.0 now that I have 3.5.

I love this game.

 

[Krieg]

Anyone who starts talking about D&D losing its "soul" really needs to start thinking about better words for what they mean.

It's a word used by people who want to put down 3E (or 2E) without actually going past "I don't like the game", and used in a fashion to denigrate the many, many people who play those games.

I posted the "soul" of the earlier versions has been lost.

I play D20. I like D20. I am hardly in a position to denigrate players of said system since I myself am one.

I stand by my original statement.