What is 3.0 & 3.5 missing that previous editions had?

[buzz]

D&D 3 and 3.5 lack the simplicity (or illusion of simplicity) that Classic D&D had. The game runs slower now than Classic D&D, which in my experience was easier to play and easier to run, (probably owing to the light amount of rules).

I have to wonder if the idea that earlier editions were easier to run comes from:

1. Aforementioned nostalgia.

2. We all played those editions for 10 or more years, ergo we knew them so well that running the game was a breeze.

3. "Restrictions not options." I can't speak to 2e, but in 1e and OD&D, a fighter was a fighter, a monk was a monk, and an orc always had 1d8HD. Add that monsters has no ability scores, and said ability socres had very little effect on those who had them, there certainly was a lot less work for the DM... but at what cost?

4. There weren't rules for doing a heck of a lot, so when the fighter tried to climb a tree, you either just said "No" or else winged it, which is certianly a lot easier than referencing a book for a climb DC.

5. I don't think anyone I've ever met actually knew all the rules, much less played them as written. To this day, I'm not 100% sure how combat in 1e was really supposed to work, and I don't think we ever used weapon speeds or armor type bonuses or a myriad of other rules from the DMG.

6. Half of the disputes and discussions that bog down games are people conflating memories of how things worked in 2e with thir poor understanding of how they actually work in 3e; thsi is certainly true of at least one of my groups.

I dunno. I have a feeling, another ten or so years down the road, we'll see threads where people fondly remember spiky armor and the original 3e ranger.

 

[diaglo]

I have to wonder if the idea that earlier editions were easier to run comes from:

1. Aforementioned nostalgia.

2. We all played those editions for 10 or more years, ergo we knew them so well that running the game was a breeze.

could be for some. but not all.

3. "Restrictions not options." I can't speak to 2e, but in 1e and OD&D, a fighter was a fighter, a monk was a monk, and an orc always had 1d8HD. Add that monsters has no ability scores, and said ability socres had very little effect on those who had them, there certainly was a lot less work for the DM... but at what cost?

not all orcs had 1d8hps. better look thru for 1edADnD your DMG and MM again. nor was it true of OD&D either. they had whatever the referee determined.

I dunno. I have a feeling, another ten or so years down the road, we'll see threads where people fondly remember spiky armor and the original 3e ranger.

you don't have to wait 10 years for that. i can show you threads on this and other message boards with this sentiment already.

 

[Staffan]

The only things I can think of that I really miss about 2e, rules-wise, are specialty priests and psionics that really feel different from magic. I also miss many of the settings from 2e.

 

[Desdichado]

And what happens when they say in the skills section that there is a limit, to what is possible and what is impossible, then you have people swimming up a waterfall... that would be impossible to my eyes, unless magic is at work, of course...

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said; just because I like "cool" fantasy doesn't mean that there aren't limits. Personally, I prefer darker, grittier, more "realistic" fantasy anyway.

But it's still definately fantasy, it's not at all medieval.

 

[Desdichado]

Basically, I think most people miss the excitement of playing something that was new. I know I do.

Yet, it's so much easier to have newness now. Old MM monsters feeling old and tired? Trot out the Monsternomicon, or the Fantasy Bestiary, and go to town. Tired of the same old rangers? How about a Midnight Wildlander as a replacement? Tired of the same old settings? How about Dawnforge, or Iron Kingdoms, or Rokugan?

 

[buzz]

not all orcs had 1d8hps. better look thru for 1edADnD your DMG and MM again. nor was it true of OD&D either. they had whatever the referee determined.

See?!?! I played 1e for something like 20 years, and I own all the OD&D books, and I have absolutely no memory of what you're talking about. Page references?

Nostalgia... bah! D&D is dead! Long live D&D!

 

[diaglo]

Page references?

you want me to remember page numbers? i can't remember what i had for breakfast.

but i do remember i crawled uphill 5 miles to and from school everyday after doing all my chores.

look at the MM under the orc for example. you will see some of them are listed as chief, subchief, guard and such...

also in the DMG look for the witchdoctor or shaman you will see that some humanoids could take class lvls.

also the Deities & Demigods 1980 further expanded lvl limits for non human spellcasters.

edit: and as for OD&D think d6

 

[Quasqueton]

Now I spend hours figuring out stats for kobolds, skills for mimics and the reflex save for bug bears.

So you don't just do what the rest of us do? Just open the MM and look at the kobold listing, the mimic listing, and the bugbear listing? All the info is right there in the newly formatted and easy to read pages. Hours? You can't do this in seconds?

How did you do it in the previous editions, when the stats, skills, and saves were not even listed in the creatures' stats in the MM?

Quasqueton

 

[KnowTheToe]

Another vote for simplicity. Two rule books with close to 600 pages, yikes, talk about scary.

Rules are more consistant and more formulatic but they can also be tedious and dry. In one of the games I play, the DM has us roll for everything, every conversation, every glance. It truely does not matter what we say or do, it comes down to a roll. We use gather information rolls to get info from a victim and directions from a barkeep or street vender. IMO this is the loss of soul people talk about. The mechanics are detailed and consistant, but they can also be dull.

 

[jasper]

Less humor, less death, more muscles (gee I would not be surprise to see a green slime with muscles and spikes)
Not addicting because I no longer young. But I do see the addiction in new players on this board.
Remathilis clap clap clap

Note to minions Kamikaze Midget has published the truth. Please drop rot grubs into his rice pudding.

Bihor practice more I spent the same amount of time grabbing the first edition MM to throw a devil at the party as do now using the 3E MM.

Personally I like the little to none monster descriptions of first edition. If I wanted tucker kobolds I could. If I wanted the orcs to be really half orcs who were really really ugly I could (now they leveled but still the same). If Bob wanted his Kobolds to be stupid charge the party till the party chokes on our kobold dead he could.

I don’t miss ecologies Pants they were cool but it made dm think inside the box or should I say book.

I do miss Gary’s writing.