What is a "Light" RPG? What is a "Crunchy" RPG?

[Corinnguard]

So if you have some sort of "drama point" that lets you do something against the "rules" does that mean you can also use them to break "physics"?

I think this would depend on what the 'drama point' happens to be. If it involves magic, I could see it pushing physics as far as it can go without breaking it. And it could do this by switching the laws of physics from objective to subjective for the caster. I read something like this in the Dragonstar RPG several years ago.

 

[Reynard]

I think this would depend on what the 'drama point' happens to be. If it involves magic, I could see it pushing physics as far as it can go without breaking it. And it could do this by switching the laws of physics from objective to subjective for the caster. I read something like this in the Dragonstar RPG several years ago.

usually those points do not exist in the world in any way. They are purely a meta-construct used by the player, not the character.

 

[Celebrim]

It is actually an interesting question from a design perspective: where on the "rules spectrum" do physics and other inherent facts sit?

One of the big problems that crunchy systems can run into is attempting to assert rules to govern interactions in the system where those interactions have a lot of edge cases that don't model the assumed reality very well. A good example is the conceptually sound system 3e has for modeling breaking inanimate objects fails to take into account the massive damage PCs can generate at moderate to high level, allowing for example a person to by the rules easily tunnel through solid stone with their bare hands. A less rules crunchy system that defaults to, "If in the opinion of the GM the proposed action is impossible, it automatically fails." doesn't have a problem where PCs discover that they can burrow through things more effectively than Shai-Halud.

Thus crunchy systems always end up with a problem of having to recognize that regardless of what inherent facts that they assumed, the rules that they give are the physics of the game universe. This tends to result in having to add yet more crunch to cover the cases that they didn't cover, leading to more and more complexity and rules to understand. That's the flaw in crunchy design.

Of course, this isn't to say that rules light designs are inherently better. At least two problems exist in a non-crunchy design that are at least as bad. First, if you don't state your facts you leave them up to interpretation and quite often there will be meaningful disagreements over what is realistic. Leaving things up to realism or what is appropriate to genre doesn't reduce table arguments; it increases them. And secondly, without guidelines GMs have a tendency to default to either "Just say yes" or "Just say no", both of which lead to pretty unsatisfying gaming experiences particularly when there are multiple aesthetics of play going on at the table. For example, "just say yes" tends to diminish the enjoyment of someone who invested resources into being good at something, since they can witness other participants wheedling the same or larger advantages out of the GM by getting them to say "yes". While "just say no" tends to reduce player creativity and immersion.

 

[bloodtide]

In my experience - of which I've provided some examples in this post - it is possible for there to be agreement among the participants as to what is possible, and for there to be rules that help determine whether or not the possible becomes actual, without the need for the sorts of house rules you describe, and in the absence of damage types or similar sorts of mechanics.

I agree it's possible, but it's just better to have at least a couple good houserules made by a good DM.

Adjudicating the fiction is not creating house rules. It's just playing the game. I mean, it's not a house rule in classic D&D that PCs can walk along dungeon floors, or make noise by tapping on walls and doors.

Rules just make for a better game. And your talking about extraordinary actions, not mundane ones.

The offical game rules just say "can freeze water" and nothing else. Ok, so the DM has to step in and say 'how much water can be frozen per action/time unit' and the 'range of this ability' and 'what it can do'.

Sure you can just leave this open if the player is a saint, but otherwise it is really best to say something like 'you can freeze 10 gallons of water an action" and "you can only effect water within 30 feet".

 

[Staffan]

The offical game rules just say "can freeze water" and nothing else. Ok, so the DM has to step in and say 'how much water can be frozen per action/time unit' and the 'range of this ability' and 'what it can do'.

Sure you can just leave this open if the player is a saint, but otherwise it is really best to say something like 'you can freeze 10 gallons of water an action" and "you can only effect water within 30 feet".

In this case, the rules do define what it can do: "Elemental Mastery d10 provides citywide control: extinguishing a burning skyscraper; freezing over a city street; bringing down a city’s power grid" I gather that the first and third examples are first either fire or water, and then electricity, but "freezing over a city street" seems a fairly good way to define the kind of things you see in superhero comics.

(Though it does seem pretty weaksauce for a powerhouse like modern-day Iceman, but I'm not sure if he was quite as powerful in the era where that game was released.)

 

[Thomas Shey]

You can walk across the frozen water because you can walk across frozen water. Why would there NEED to be a rule about that? It's like making a rule about how you can't get nutrition by eating rocks.

But can you? Ever tried to walk on ice? Especially when you're in a hurry (as is likely to be the case in the example at hand)? Any effect from that? What's the failure chance?

These are not simple "people can walk" cases. These are "can people walk under these conditions" cases, and somewhere, someone's going to have to make a decision about that and the decision is not self-evident.

 

[Thomas Shey]

usually those points do not exist in the world in any way. They are purely a meta-construct used by the player, not the character.

Though its good you used "usually". I know of a couple exceptions there.

 

[Thomas Shey]

In this case, the rules do define what it can do: "Elemental Mastery d10 provides citywide control: extinguishing a burning skyscraper; freezing over a city street; bringing down a city’s power grid" I gather that the first and third examples are first either fire or water, and then electricity, but "freezing over a city street" seems a fairly good way to define the kind of things you see in superhero comics.

(Though it does seem pretty weaksauce for a powerhouse like modern-day Iceman, but I'm not sure if he was quite as powerful in the era where that game was released.)

You could probably add a--SFX?--that allowed you to do that better. Past that, when you only have four scales (D6 not usually being used for powers) there's going to be some problems with steps.

 

[Reynard]

Though its good you used "usually". I know of a couple exceptions there.

Out of curiosity, what are they? I am trying to come up with an in-fiction metacurrency and outside of Mage: The Awakening (I forget the name of the force) I can't think of one.

ETA: Except Force Points I guess.

 

[pemerton]

The offical game rules just say "can freeze water" and nothing else. Ok, so the DM has to step in and say 'how much water can be frozen per action/time unit' and the 'range of this ability' and 'what it can do'.

@Staffan already requoted the rules text I posted upthread.

But in addition, the GM doesn't have to step in and answer those questions. The rules system does so. For instance, if the GM thinks that the feat being attempted is particularly challenging, they can apply Doom Pool dice to oppose it.

If the body of water is so significant/salient that the GM has assigned it a Scene Distinction, then the die for that will also figure in the opposed dice pool.

And then the roll of the dice determines whether or not this feat was actually possible.