What is CoDZilla?

[Sitara]

First lets just look at things RAW, if we add magic items into the mix this discussion will never end. for every magic item/splat item/splat spell you give Clercis or Druids, I can give the other classes as well (heck I cab give wizards two for every one you give me!). Lets also ignore PRc's for now, simply because any PRC you toss out for COD will have to come up against Ultimate Magus, Raumathari Battlemage, Eldritch Knight, etc etc. That will not be a pretty confrontation for CoD.

Ok:

Disintegrate beats Harm any day for the simple reason that harm is a touch attack that requires the CoD to go into melee, while the Wizzie can disintegrate from a ways away.

Firestorm is lower level than Meteor Swarm, and as such MUCH more prone to Spell resisitance. Meteor Swarm Wins.

Wizards have a ton more spells they can maximize to far greater potential.

Mage armor , shield and magic missile. CoD has nothing on these. Nothing. Do not underestimate thepower of the duration of Mage Armor, and the power of lower level spell slots. (i.e. wizards have a ton of lower level slots for these 3 babies)

CoD has to focus on many stats to be effective at casting and melee. Theyneed high str for attack/damage, high con to survive in melee, his WIS for their spell DC's, and decent Dex for Ac boost. therefore they end up being not much good at anything.

Wizard only needs high INT. Wizard wins.

Wizards get power word kill, along with the other power words.

Wizrds have more feat slots to spare for item creation, spell focus, spell penetration etc, especially since they already get meta feats for free. CoD though has to split focus from martial feats (wepaon focus, cleave, power attack etc) to their divine feats, metamagic feats, item creation feats etc.

 

[Testament]

First lets just look at things RAW, if we add magic items into the mix this discussion will never end. for every magic item/splat item/splat spell you give Clercis or Druids, I can give the other classes as well (heck I cab give wizards two for every one you give me!). Lets also ignore PRc's for now, simply because any PRC you toss out for COD will have to come up against Ultimate Magus, Raumathari Battlemage, Eldritch Knight, etc etc. That will not be a pretty confrontation for CoD.

Sorry pal, but Magic Items are part of the RAW and are intrisic to characters, so they NEED to stay in. The game was designed around their existence, so any argument which ignores them is irrelevant. I will stick to the Three Core Books however.

If we're gonna talk PrCs, I laugh at most of your choices there, and respond with RSoP, War Shaper (1,000,000,000 tentacles HOOO!) and then wipe them all with Ur-Priest, Void Disciple and Dweomercheater anyway. Ultimate Magus is laughable, and Eldritch Knight is a patch-class.

Oh, and Greenbond Summoner. Druid wins the cheese stakes.

Disintegrate beats Harm any day for the simple reason that harm is a touch attack that requires the CoD to go into melee, while the Wizzie can disintegrate from a ways away."

Except that a saving throw makes Disintegrate laughable, as can poor rolls. Harm will outdamage it most of the time, especially on a failed save. And when you have a Beta BAB, the melee touch means little, plus, you get a second chance with it IF you miss.

Firestorm is lower level than Meteor Swarm, and as such MUCH more prone to Spell resisitance. Meteor Swarm Wins.

Spell level means nothing, only Caster level when it comes to SR. And Beads of Karma exist, so Divines win that round with ease, especially since any kind of DR or Fire Resistance reduces Meteor Swarm to Meteor Tickle. There's a good reason its considered the worst 9th in the PHB.

As for the low level spells, Shield of Faith and Barkskin CRUSH Mage Armour and Shield, since they're a Deflection Bonus and a Natural Armour bonus that scale with (Wait for it!) CASTER LEVEL, that can be given to someone else too, unlike shield. Mithril Buckler and a pair of Bracers of Armour take care of the 1st level spells and can be upgraded.

CoD has to focus on many stats to be effective at casting and melee. Theyneed high str for attack/damage, high con to survive in melee, his WIS for their spell DC's, and decent Dex for Ac boost. therefore they end up being not much good at anything.

Wizard only needs high INT. Wizard wins.

Not really. A cleric only needs to maximise DCs if he's going the caster route, and since hey tend to tin-can it, they don't need Dex at all. A cleric can just focus around his Con and use Extend Spell to cover for the rest if he has to when he goes Self Buffer route. And a Druid doesn't need physicals at all, thanks to the wonders of Wild Shape. And a Wizard with low Con is a Wizard who doesn't make it to high level. Failed Fort saves kill you.

Wizards get power word kill, along with the other power words.

Power Word? POWER WORD? Please, if you're going to trot those out, you obviously aren't an optimiser of any stripe. Power Word Stun is the only one worth putting in a spellbook, since PW:K needs them to be <100 HP, at which point they're dead anyway. A Word of Faith, especially the all conqureing Dictum or Blasphemy crush it into the dust with their eyes shut and both hands behind their back, two levels earlier.

Wizrds have more feat slots to spare for item creation, spell focus, spell penetration etc, especially since they already get meta feats for free. CoD though has to split focus from martial feats (wepaon focus, cleave, power attack etc) to their divine feats, metamagic feats, item creation feats etc.

A CoD DOESN'T split his focus. Splitting focus is the fastest path to gimphood, no matter the class. A Cleric or Druid who picks a path however will DOMINATE it with ease.

 

[Quartz]

Nwm (pronounced: quoted for truth)

Don't forget that Nwm had no magic items.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Wizards have a ton more spells they can maximize to far greater potential.

Testament handled the others quite comprehensively, but left this one so I'll remind you once more of the startlingly cheap Incense of Meditation.

12th level wizard maximises his fireball? Well, he could do 3 with a rod of metamagic, but to get more than that he needs 6th level slots.

That druid could use his 6th level slots for maximised fire seeds (touch attack for 72 damage each) or empowered maximised flame strike (60+6d6 damage), 5th level slots for maximised call lightning storm (50 damage per round for 12 rounds per casting) 4th level slots for maximised flame strike (60 damage) etc. etc.



The problem is, the cost of maximising spells for wizards is prohibitive, while divine casters can get their entire spell load maximised for 4,500gp. Not something you would burn every day for sure, but on an offensive raid it is astonishingly cost effective.

It would be nice to think that the balance is redressed somewhat in 4e

Cheers

 

[Bacris]

Sitara, there's a reason when people go to the Character Optimization boards and ask for the best class to play for a Core games, Druid 20 is a common answer.

Splatbooks may go a long way to increasing the wizard / <insert other base class here> to the same level, but straight from the Core 3, the druid is hands down one of the strongest classes, especially after level 5 when Wildshape kicks in.

Just to see what all the fuss was about, I tried playing a druid from level 5 to level 10. He was a wildshaping druid (typically in bear form) with a wolf animal companion. I felt DIRTY after playing that character for those levels, because it trivialized so many encounters. Sure, there were things that he couldn't cover as well (traps, for example), but my first attempt as a druid has left me never wanting to play the class again because of how easy it made things. Sure, I don't want my character to die, but it's not fun when the fights become yawn-fests of "Oh, the druid just took out three enemies in one round, now what?"

And he was mostly a Core druid, didn't use a lot of stuff from splatbooks as Wizards are so fond of.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

And a Druid doesn't need physicals at all, thanks to the wonders of Wild Shape.

Not the case IME.
You still need high Con, since wildshape doesn't change HP.
You still need high Dex, to survive those first few levels (and all the times at higher levels when you aren't wildshaped, which IN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY, as opposed to the Internet, tends to be non-negligible). If your DM isn't using the Magic Item Compendium, you'll want to stay in your normal form more often, since then you can retain the benefit of your magic items. You also need high Dex to qualify for certain feats, such as Fast Wild Shape.

I would guess that over the course of all campaigns that have actually been played, PC druids are in their normal form for more rounds of combat than they are wildshaped. A few of the reasons might include: games that take place mostly at lower levels, players who have enough taste to not annoy their fellow gamers and DM with the idiocy of a cloak-wearing bear, and DMs who enforce the communication barrier.

 

[Testament]

Not the case IME.
You still need high Con, since wildshape doesn't change HP.
You still need high Dex, to survive those first few levels (and all the times at higher levels when you aren't wildshaped, which IN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY, as opposed to the Internet, tends to be non-negligible). If your DM isn't using the Magic Item Compendium, you'll want to stay in your normal form more often, since then you can retain the benefit of your magic items. You also need high Dex to qualify for certain feats, such as Fast Wild Shape.

I would guess that over the course of all campaigns that have actually been played, PC druids are in their normal form for more rounds of combat than they are wildshaped. A few of the reasons might include: games that take place mostly at lower levels, players who have enough taste to not annoy their fellow gamers and DM with the idiocy of a cloak-wearing bear, and DMs who enforce the communication barrier.

The "Beast Mode" DZilla was created from the original form of Wild Shape, which is why I use it as my point of reference for this. I still stand by my theory that the real problem with it was Natural Spell and Animated Shields, not the ability itself. And when Dragons and just about any monster in existence that has an Int score wears magic items, you better believe that Druids will do so*.

At any rate, as I said above, splitting your focus is the fastest path to gimpdom. 14-16 Wis is more than sufficient, especially if you throw the original Wild Shape 'fix' in the garbage (where it belongs, how many changes were made in the first 48 hours?) and use the Shapechanging ability from PHBII.

*I personally liked that Living Greyhawk ruling on it: amulet, cloak, rings, Ioun Stones and 'vest' stay. The rest melds and switches off.

 

[Arkhandus]

Not the case IME.
You still need high Con, since wildshape doesn't change HP.
You still need high Dex, to survive those first few levels (and all the times at higher levels when you aren't wildshaped, which IN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY, as opposed to the Internet, tends to be non-negligible).

Who needs to be really nimble, strong, or tough when you have animal companions like this, or this, or this, right at 1st-level, who are better than 1st-level warriors?

And when you can cast Summon Nature's Ally 1 for another Wolf minion (albeit only for 1 round at 1st-level, but it still a very decent attacker), or Produce Flame for several ranged touch attacks (against the usual touch AC 10, 11, or 12 for many low-level critters). Magic Stone isn't bad either, though not as handy as Produce Flame. Shillelagh is similar to Magic Stone in usefulness. And Entangle's rather effective too, though not for attacking (but it'll make your allies happy!).

In my experience, playing and DMing for several different druids from 1st-level onward (and the occasional druid of 6th, 12th, or so), these kind of animal companions are very effective early on. You don't need to be anything more than an average joe, physically, as a druid. Sure, an above average Constitution is nice, but you don't need it maxed.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

At any rate, as I said above, splitting your focus is the fastest path to gimpdom.

I've found the druid's versatility to be its greatest strength. I prefer well-rounded characters and have found this to be a way to make an exceedingly fun, resilient, and capable druid PC. You always don't know what challenges are coming up, and DMs often like to encourage players to be creative, so it's good to be more than a one-trick pony.

Who needs to be really nimble, strong, or tough when you have animal companions like this, or this, or this, right at 1st-level, who are better than 1st-level warriors?

I often had enemies shooting or casting spells at my druid at low levels, especially when he tried to cast a Summoning spell. The Dex and Con definitely kept him alive. The campaign has been an absolutely thrilling one where we are usually pushed to our limits, have time constraints and no teleport (so no buff-scry-teleport or retreating home to nap), and many battles with dozens of enemies (where the druid's poor AC is a real glaring weakness).

I don't dispute that it's a very powerful and versatile class, but I can only say that in my experience the Dex and Con were essential for keeping my druid alive.