D&D General What is Good for D&D ... is Good for the RPG Hobby- Thoughts?

[Ruin Explorer]

See, I've tried, and also had others try and get me to pick up other systems (Table Top games mostly), to varying levels of failure. The issue has always boiled down to "my time is limited, why play X, when I could play Y, and if I only have time for Y, I'm certainly not going to invest into learning X at all".

Just my experience though.

Hmmm. Maybe Public School Boys Are Magic lol, I guess Boris Johnson managed to get elected PM despite being an manifest idiot whose main concerns were dosh and his love life, and perhaps I can use my own magic to persuade people to play RPGs other than D&D. I mean sheesh I got my main group to switch to Spire less than a year ago, and I also got them to try out my Cortex Prime-built Mass Effect RPG - the only reason we didn't keep going with that was we did indeed have a refusenik, the first I've ever come across - but not because of me or the rules, because that player has a personal and bizarre beef with Mass Effect (and it's a normal one either lol, I'm not sure I can even explain it - it's like, he's personally offended by pretty much most of Shepard's companions - like what the hell man?).

 

[Scribe]

Hmmm. Maybe Public School Boys Are Magic lol, I guess Boris Johnson managed to get elected PM despite being an manifest idiot whose main concerns were dosh and his love life, and perhaps I can use my own magic to persuade people to play RPGs other than D&D. I mean sheesh I got my main group to switch to Spire less than a year ago, and I also got them to try out my Cortex Prime-built Mass Effect RPG - the only reason we didn't keep going with that was we did indeed have a refusenik, the first I've ever come across - but not because of me or the rules, because that player has a personal and bizarre beef with Mass Effect (and it's a normal one either lol, I'm not sure I can even explain it - it's like, he's personally offended by pretty much most of Shepard's companions - like what the hell man?).

I mean I dont know what to tell you. Its just about that time management, and my group just didnt have the will or desire to change. Not that there was any personal beef, just a 'but we could do this instead so why..' kind of thing. A general satisfaction with the status quo, I suppose.

 

[JAMUMU]

that player has a personal and bizarre beef with Mass Effect (and it's a normal one either lol, I'm not sure I can even explain it - it's like, he's personally offended by pretty much most of Shepard's companions - like what the hell man?).

IME there's just no accounting for players. Always getting in the way, messing up the good gaming.

 

[Aldarc]

View attachment 275064

Don't you know? PF2 = FKR.

 

[overgeeked]

I think we misunderstand each other at a fundamental level.

(I'm not saying you are in favour of PF1, its my system of choice.)

I'm not suggesting we support Wizards,

Any version of "keep playing 5E" supports Wizards. Yes, even non-Wizards 5E clones. Because, importantly, Wizards also produces content for 5E. So if you play Black Flag, a 5E variant, someone is going to eventually want to play an artificer or a species not covered by Black Flag and the artificer is right there in D&D...the other races are right there in D&D. So people will still buy Wizards books because they will still be compatible with Black Flag. Or A5E, or C7d20, or...or...or.

I'm not wanting to solve the problem of 5e being too dominant.

If you care about the hobby you should.

The point of the thread and the open question(s) are I guess

1. Can it even be solved.

Yes, easily. Stop playing and supporting 5E.

2. If not, how can it (5e dominance) be leveraged for good?

It can't. All 5E roads lead to WotC. That was literally the point of the OGL and now the CC-BY release of the 5.1 SRD. Supporting any of them will either directly or indirectly support WotC.

If your answer to the premise of the thread

The premise of the thread is: What's good for D&D is good for the RPG hobby. I fundamentally disagree with that premise. Quite the opposite. What's good for D&D is actively harmful to the RPG hobby.

'D&D is out there, and folk D&D is the answer' in the form of whatever version you like, thats a perfectly valid answer.

D&D is out there...and so are thousands and thousands of other games. Go play some. That's my answer.

Does it look like DCC? Maybe? I love the flavour of the free rules.

Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. DCC rocks. You should try it. But it's not just about D&D-adjacent games. It's about the industry as a whole. Traveller, Paranoia, Call of Cthulhu, Bushido, Fabula Ultima, Fate, Apocalypse World, Masks, Cartel, L5R, Mouse Guard, Mutant Year Zero, Wushu, Risus, Index Card RPG, Night's Black Agents, Outbreak, Cortex Prime, Cypher, WFRP, Broken Compass, on and on and on. Those games and so many more barely exist because D&D has a stranglehold on the industry. I'd love to be able to play all of them and more. I've offered to run most of those on that list. There just aren't players...because D&D has a stranglehold on the industry.

The issue is one of 3PP keeping the lights on, as you noted, and how that is done, within the realm of 5e being the overwhelmingly dominant space.

Right. And that very dominance is the problem.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I mean I dont know what to tell you. Its just about that time management, and my group just didnt have the will or desire to change. Not that there was any personal beef, just a 'but we could do this instead so why..' kind of thing. A general satisfaction with the status quo, I suppose.

Unfortunate.

I mean, what I've found is important, as an adult, is two things:

1) You have to be genuinely excited about the system you want people to try out, and you have to express that excitement, and think about the individual players and what they like/don't like about D&D. If they like everything about it, you may be in trouble lol.

2) It needs to have character generation at least as simple/straightforward as D&D. This bar can go a bit higher if the system is kind of famous, I've found, like people will risk more complex chargen to try Exalted or whatever, but not this game "Spire" they'd never heard of - fortunately it has far more straightforward chargen.

Then you just convince them to do a one-shot, and make sure it's an evening where they actually have time to make their PCs and play the game, or make the PCs outside the game.

You can also be subversive and get a smaller part of the group to try it out with you first - the more adventurous ones - and then they can convince the others.

 

[overgeeked]

Don't you know? PF2 = FKR.

My brain hurts.

mp_gumby.gif

 

[Scribe]

Any version of "keep playing 5E" supports Wizards. Yes, even non-Wizards 5E clones. Because, importantly, Wizards also produces content for 5E. So if you play Black Flag, a 5E variant, someone is going to eventually want to play an artificer or a species not covered by Black Flag and the artificer is right there in D&D...the other races are right there in D&D. So people will still buy Wizards books because they will still be compatible with Black Flag. Or A5E, or C7d20, or...or...or.

We agree.

If you care about the hobby you should.

We agree, but I believe it to be outside my personal control. I'm not a publisher, of any appreciable size or influence.

Yes, easily. Stop playing and supporting 5E.

Depending on where you are, the size of your player pool, or your own network. This amounts to 'Play 5e or Play Nothing'.

The premise of the thread is: What's good for D&D is good for the RPG hobby. I fundamentally disagree with that premise. Quite the opposite. What's good for D&D is actively harmful to the RPG hobby.

And thats 100% fine, the point was to have discussion generated.

D&D is out there...and so are thousands and thousands of other games. Go play some. That's my answer.

As noted in the dialogue with Ruin Explorer, its not that simple.

Right. And that very dominance is the problem.

Understood, the point (to me) is is there room to get a benefit out of this.

 

[Yora]

Metaphorically, what is the tide? Tabletop roleplaying in general?

Because then, in a sense, D&D is the tide. It was the game that invented TTRPG (and yes, I know about the various influences and antecedents, but D&D was where it all came together). And though the genre almost immediately grew beyond D&D, that early identification means it is the one game that is treated as a kind of synonym for the entire hobby. That is why it will be so hard to unseat.

I also agree with Snarf that a lot of games sold under different names and by different companies, more or less are D&D. Just with different skins on. When you get past the superficialities of what dice they use or how they distribute skill checks, abilities and so on, the tabletop experience is not particularly distinct. So this limits the incentive to switch games, because really, you are just having to learn new rules to play more D&D, except maybe with a space setting or a cosmic horror theme or whatever. That can be fun, and I love me a good game of Call of Cthulhu myself. But I don't think it's enough to drive a big D&D exodus.

WotC's games have nothing in common with the early RPG that started it all, other than the branding.

 

[dave2008]

Me too. I just don't get to enjoy my game because people aren't interested in playing it because it's not 5E. So cool for you, sucks for me. I guess I can either shuffle off out of the hobby or get on the bland train. No gaming is better than bad gaming, I suppose.

Well I only game with friends so I don't have that problem and our brand of 5e is anything but bland!