What is GURPS?

[pawsplay]

My guess would be complexity. Hero and GURPS, both, can involve a daunting amount of prep work for both players and GMs.

The only problem with that theory is that they are both simple games.

 

[pawsplay]

GURPS is Hero with all the powers and disadvantages prebuilt and a lot of the flexibility removed.

Its not a bad game, but in playing it one is often left to wonder, "why am I not just playing the game this is obviously a tool-down of?"

I own a substantial number of books of both, and I entirely disagree with this opinion. I really am not sure how you would come to this misperception.

 

[jdrakeh]

The only problem with that theory is that they are both simple games.

Well, Hero is heavily front-loaded with math. Not difficult math, mind you, just a lot of it up front. For example, Hero has rules for creating powers, equipment, vehicles, and pretty much anything else you can thing of from scratch and assumes that you will do so, giving rather limited selections of each of these things in the FRED core book. This isn't an issue if you have the time or inclination to build an entire world from scratch, but if you don't, it can certainly be daunting.

A lot of other generic systems (in fact, AFAIK, all other generic systems) either have rules where you simply describe effects/equipment/etc and then aribitrarily assign a cost to them. Or conversely, they provide comprehensive lists of pre-built powers, pices of equipment, and vehicles that you can simply choose from. Such systems are not as detailed as Hero in terms of mechanical crunch, but the tradeoff is that they also take a lot less effor to run.

Now, after you get all of your stuff built, there's very little math involved in Hero during actual play -- but, IME, a lot of people never make it that far due to an initial "WTF?!? I have to model a handgun using power effects!" response to seeing the character/item/power/vehicle creation rules.

Granted, in both GURPS and Hero, this blow can be softened by sourcebooks (if you don't want to make it yourself, chances are, it's covered in a sourcebook someplace) but that will only get you so far.

 

[pawsplay]

Now, after you get all of your stuff built, there's very little math involved in Hero during actual play -- but, IME, a lot of people never make it that far due to an initial "WTF?!? I have to model a handgun using power effects!" response to seeing the character/item/power/vehicle creation rules.

Granted, in both GURPS and Hero, this blow can be softened by sourcebooks (if you don't want to make it yourself, chances are, it's covered in a sourcebook someplace) but that will only get you so far.

The Hero System book already comes with a half dozen handguns, one or more shotguns, some SMGs, numerous vehicles, historical armor, etc.

GURPS comes with representative weapons of every Tech Level from 1 to 11 and stats for a riding camel.

So without going to any great lengths to stat anything, I can already pretty much run anything Feng Shui will do (very few creature or chi powers would be complicated enough to take more than a minute or two to convert, and the rest is already there). It's true, the main books only cover some very basic items, but sometimes, that's all you need. If you actually want a dozen kinds of revolver, stats for a WWII fighter plane, or Roman gladiator armor, yes, you'll want a sourcebook.

GURPS Characters + GURPS Campaigns + GURPS Banestorm is three books, just like D&D, and comes with a more developed game world.

HERO System 5th + The Turakian Age, likewise.

For either GURPS or HERO, you will find they each come with as many weapons and armors described as does D&D. In fact, both support mix and match armor, which D&D 4e does not. I think people are quick to level as a liability that which is actually an asset. Yes, sourcebooks make GURPS and HERO more newbie friendly and complete, but the books are already as newbie friendly and complete as is D&D, and in fewer books.

I can do a reasonable approximation of any 3.5 sample character in GURPS without the use of any soucebook whatsoever.

 

[Mercule]

The only problem with that theory is that they are both simple games.

For certain values of simple. A vanishingly small number of values.

Most non-gamers consider Monopoly to be a complex game and Risk to be taxing. Yes, Hero (sticking with my experiences) involves balanced, internally consistent rules with 3rd grade math. But it still isn't exactly what I'd throw down in front of a green player to digest on their own.

 

[jdrakeh]

Yes, Hero (sticking with my experiences) involves balanced, internally consistent rules with 3rd grade math. But it still isn't exactly what I'd throw down in front of a green player to digest on their own.

As I hint at above, I don't think it's the complexity of the math so much as it is the volume of the math. There is quite a bit of math involved in character gen (and world-building, in Hero) -- I'd go so far as to say there is considerably more up-front math than in many other RPGs of recent vintage (these RPGs basically have you pick stuff from lists or have broad 'catch all' approximations, rather than requiring you to build everything yourself).

I've found that only the most die-hard gamers are willing to indulge a roleplaying system that seems like work. IME, most people want options, but they want them in a pre-constructed format that makes building a character like taking a trip to the store, rather than like erecting a store one nut and bolt at a time. Again, in GURPS and Hero, sourcebooks can alleviate this to a large degree, but I don't see many people get that far.

IME, many players take one look at the GURPS or Hero core books, think "Oh, man! Look at all the work this requires!" and then go buy something less labor intensive. This is a shame because, as I mention, once you get past the initial 'build it' stage, both games are actually far less rules-heavy than stuff like D&D 3x. People just don't get a chance to find that out first-hand

 

[hong]

That's what Robin Laws said: RPGs are fantasy shopping for guys.

 

[Choranzanus]

GURPS is a kind of rpg system that reads much better than it actually plays (the opposite of 4ed I think). Virtually none of the rules work as they are supposed to. Buyers beware.

That said, the sourcebooks are great. Just download GURPS Lite for free and you can use them.

When disscusing GURPS it is useful to remember that rules are more than just character creation. It is great that you can make a character you want, but that does not in itself make a great rpg system.

 

[jdrakeh]

That's what Robin Laws said: RPGs are fantasy shopping for guys.

I had forgotten about that, though I think there is a lot of truth to the observation.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

GURPS is one of my favorite game systems. A couple of things should be kept in mind, however:

- The GM needs to remember that most of the rules - including the advantages, disadvantages, and skills - are optional and not needed in most campaigns, though which of those are inappropriate for a specific campaign will vary. The GM needs to pay attention to the creation of the characters, and the players need to show a modicum of common sense when creating them. As I've said before, just because you can in theory purchase Social Status 7 and thus play the President of the United States in a modern-day campaign, it doesn't mean that playing such a character will be appropriate.

- Unlike D&D, characters aren't assumed to be equally competent in combat unless the players make them so. Character points measure overall experience, power, and versatility, and not just competence in combat. Thus, it's just as possible to build scholars or socialites with the same number of character points as hardened combat monsters. If there are going to be a lot of fights, then the players should all make sure that their characters have some combat ability, and that no PC outshines the others too much.

- GURPS has a solid grounding in realism, so tactics that would work in real life will work well in it as well. If you are in a gunfight, use good cover and strategic positions. If your tech level is medieval, wear armor if you plan to get into swordfights. The side with the better tactics will usually have a huge advantage.