D&D 5E what is it about 2nd ed that we miss?

[Tony Vargas]

both of which statements would have to be false for them to include HP as a purely meta-game resource that doesn't reflect an in-game observable reality.

A perfect example of a faulty assumption.

 

[Shasarak]

I guess how many hps the Miner has depends how experienced he is.

 

[Maxperson]

Even having read FATE, I cannot imagine a game being so poorly designed as to fall into the trap you are suggesting. So yes, I'm going to give the designers some credit, and assume that Hit Points are a real thing which exist in the world - that all of their spells and potions and poultices actually do something - and it's not just a game mechanic which exist entirely outside of that reality.

Potions and spells heal wounds in the real world. They do not cure 1d8+4 hit points. Only in the out of character game mechanics do hit points come into play. They have never been an in game resource.

 

[Ancalagon]

I'm sorry, but it's really not an objective reality - the ogre doesn't exist. Objectively.

An ogre in that context is an imaginary challenge to a party of imaginary adventurers.

Neither does a dollar. I don't mean the piece of paper, I mean the "small segment of value". We made it up, it's an imaginary agreed upon concept to help us trade items without having to resort to barter.

I will grant that the imaginary concept of the dollar is *slightly* more important than ogres but ...


(oh, and if you don't agree that dollars are made up, look up fiat currency )


Anyway, I'm pretty sure minions are not what we miss about 2e!!!

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Potions and spells heal wounds in the real world. They do not cure 1d8+4 hit points.

You have healing potions and spells in the real world? Are they FDA approved?

Seriously, though, Hit Points are what players use to quantify the injuries that their characters suffer. They reflect the reality that some people can be shot or stabbed multiple times without dying (saying nothing, for now, of the severity of those wounds), and the real injuries can be repaired by whatever in-game effect produces the mechanical effect of restoring lost Hit Points.

The characters don't see Hit Points, but they see a reality which corresponds to Hit Points, because the effect which Hit Points represent within the world is an objectively verifiable reality. There is an understandable in-game difference between Cure Wounds II and Cure Wounds V, and the characters must be aware of that difference in order for the players to make such decisions on their behalf.

 

[Maxperson]

You have healing potions and spells in the real world? Are they FDA approved?

Seriously, though, Hit Points are what players use to quantify the injuries that their characters suffer. They reflect the reality that some people can be shot or stabbed multiple times without dying (saying nothing, for now, of the severity of those wounds), and the real injuries can be repaired by whatever in-game effect produces the mechanical effect of restoring lost Hit Points.

The characters don't see Hit Points, but they see a reality which corresponds to Hit Points, because the effect which Hit Points represent within the world is an objectively verifiable reality. There is an understandable in-game difference between Cure Wounds II and Cure Wounds V, and the characters must be aware of that difference in order for the players to make such decisions on their behalf.

RIght, it's a player mechanic and the PCs don't see the hit points. A strike to the arm of a PC for 12 hit points of damage might only open a small cut. The rest of the hit point damage being luck, skill, whatever. Hit points are abstract. When a cleric casts a cure spell for lets say 1d8+4, the PC only know that the cut is completely healed, or healed to some degree, but still bothersome.

The game becomes ever so slightly problematic with the abstract nature of hit points in the PCs choosing the power level of spells as you noted. However, the player choice, since it's only the player that can see hit points, can be explained by whim, expedience, a desire to make sure the wound heals, or whatever. That choice does not mean that the PC can see 100% of the hit point damage.

In order for the PC to see 100% of the hit point damage, you need to remove the abstract nature of hit points and reduce them to meat damage only. Of course, then you get ridiculous result of being able to stab a 20th level fighter 20 or 30 times with a dagger and just irritate him. Abstract is much better in my opinion.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You have healing potions and spells in the real world? Are they FDA approved?

And 'the power of prayer,' yes. No, for obvious reasons.

Seriously, though, Hit Points are what players use to quantify the injuries that their characters suffer.

Not really, no. As long as you're low level and being hit by swords - and not using HD, or overnight healing, and took away the Fighter's Second Wind - they can be kinda used that way. As you add levels and end up with double, even 10 times the hps you used to have, thinking of them as mapping precisely to 'injury' falls apart. It's something people noticed (and dealt with) before you even started playing the game. EGG went into it in great detail in the 1e DMG.

They reflect the reality that some people can be shot or stabbed multiple times without dying.

They don't do so well with the fact that same people can be shot or stabbed once - or slip in the shower - and be instantly killed.

Because they're not reflecting reality.

Like saving throws, D&D's hit points are a mechanic that reflects the tendency of protagonists to not die before their story wraps up. So-called 'plot armor.'

There is an understandable in-game difference between Cure Wounds II and Cure Wounds V, and the characters must be aware of that difference in order for the players to make such decisions on their behalf.

Is there? One person walks up to you with a scratch, you cast Cure Wounds and it's gone. The next guy walks up to you with a scratch, you cast Cure Wounds and it's only slightly better.

Neither does a dollar. I don't mean the piece of paper, I mean the "small segment of value".

Most dollars aren't even pieces of paper anymore. They're a fiat currency, they have value (a claim on current production) because the government says they do.
And has guns.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure minions are not what we miss about 2e!!!

I can't recall, ATM, if 2e kept it, but the 1 attack/level vs less-than-one-HD monsters was a feature that 1e had, that made the mighty hero wading through lesser foes theoretically workable. It just ended up being tedious, and not mattering much since they couldn't hurt you. If you miss that...

 

[Shasarak]

One person walks up to you with a scratch, you cast Cure Wounds and it's gone. The next guy walks up to you with a scratch, you cast Cure Wounds and it's only slightly better.

A scratch? Your arms off!

 

[Maxperson]

A scratch? Your arms off!

My last PC lost 12 arms that way.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

In order for the PC to see 100% of the hit point damage, you need to remove the abstract nature of hit points and reduce them to meat damage only. Of course, then you get ridiculous result of being able to stab a 20th level fighter 20 or 30 times with a dagger and just irritate him. Abstract is much better in my opinion.

They need to be able to see enough of a difference to know whether it calls for Cure II or Cure V, because the decision about which spell to cast is an in-character one, the same as if they're deciding which potion to drink. They can't make a decision based on information they don't have access to.

There are many ways to explain how this can work, and very few of those ways involve being able to plunge your sword all the way through the character multiple times. It can't work if the characters can't see some difference between losing 4 HP and losing 40 HP, though; there has to be something that corresponds to that, even if it means your heroes all have aura-vision or whatever.

Hit Points are only as abstract as they need to be - it doesn't matter whether you were stabbed in the arm or bashed in the head, since it doesn't apply penalties and it all heals the same - but they can't be so abstract as to make the game un-RP-able. You need to be able to tell that you were hit, and how badly.