D&D 5E what is it about 2nd ed that we miss?

[Maxperson]

Thanks for the reference. Now I have a serious question to all:
Do you think a concussion qualifies as a "sign of wear and tear" per the book?

I ask because I've been following several (american) football blogs myself. Lots of american football forums are as entertaining and energizing just like here Me personally, a concussion would be "visible HP loss" as it can be visible in a player's eye movement and alter a players attitude. Kinda like physical shock. Even at the office at my job, there have been a few meetings where I would leave the room almost physically "shaking with rage" or shock.

Is a concussion or physical shock a visible sign of HP loss? In 2e? In 5e?

Yes and no. I would say if it isn't causing penalties to the player it would be, but if you're talking serious concussions like when NFL players walk over and line up in the wrong huddle and such, then no. That's more than just hit point loss.

So the "D&D" you describe allows characters to see the hitpoints of other characters. Then that begs the question:
- Can PCs see the monsters' hitpoints? For the purpose of spells depending on HP total.
- Can the PCs see their own alignment? For the purpose of spells that depend on it.
- Also did 2e use the "1e Law-Chaos" alignment system or the "3e 9-point" system?
- Oh, why not: Did 2e use the "4e 5-point" alignment system? Ok, this one's optional.

1e also used the 9 alignment system. It was the basic game that had law-neutral-chaos.

 

[SubDude]

I know this one. What do I miss about 2nd Edition? Being in my twenties.

 

[Carlsen Chris]

Rocking out to Pearl Jam's "Ten" and wearing plaid.

 

[Ancalagon]

Rocking out to Pearl Jam's "Ten" and wearing plaid.

Oh yes. Plaid gave you +1 AC after all.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Rocking out to Pearl Jam's "Ten" and wearing plaid.

This can be done with 5E.

Plaid optional.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Is a concussion or physical shock a visible sign of HP loss? In 2e? In 5e?

It could be. In some ways it's worse, because you would usually expect a concussion to affect the performance of a player. If you're playing HP as just a generic "how beaten up you are", then concussions mostly don't happen, for the same reason we don't worry about sprains or broken bones. If you're playing HP as including cuts and fractures that real people might suffer from combat, but you're ignoring the penalties because these are heroes, then you could easily say that a concussion is the real-world effect which corresponds to that particular instance of HP damage.

If I was playing a fighter, and the DM narrated that the ogre's club gave me a concussion, then I would ask how much damage to write down.

- Can PCs see the monsters' hitpoints? For the purpose of spells depending on HP total.

With both PCs and monsters, anyone can see the damage they've taken, but not their total capacity for taking damage. You can usually guess that a big or powerful creature has more maximum HP, but a high-level halfling will have more HP than a generic ogre, so that guideline doesn't always hold. Only part of your HP maximum comes from your physical size, after all.

I don't know that it ever came up, in terms of spells that depended on such. Most of those spells were high-level spells that we never saw. The only one I can think of that actually saw use was Sleep, which was always a gamble anyway since you didn't know how much it would affect.

- Can the PCs see their own alignment? For the purpose of spells that depend on it.

D&D is not a game of subtleties. Just as it's incredibly obvious which class someone belongs to (if any), so it is also obvious what their alignment is - which is to say, anyone can tell by looking, unless you're specifically making an effort to hide it.

And again, they might not always use those words, but anyone can tell whether they find themselves more aligned with Orcus than with Pelor. The words "Chaotic Neutral" might not mean anything to you, but you know that you're opposed to needless rules, and that you aren't especially inclined to help or hurt other people.

Evil characters usually wear black. Good characters usually wear white. Chaotic characters usually have spikes on their armor.

 

[RotGrub]

So, one of the things we miss about 2e was the way it didn't have much of any discussion in the PH or DMG of what hps 'actually' represented?

I wouldn't say that it didn't provide much of a discussion, but what it didn't do is attempt to "finally" define HP to mean one thing in particular. With 2e I like the fact that I can narrate HP damage to be whatever I want it to be for the situation at hand. I'll admit that the problem was far worse in 4e than it is in 5e. In fact, I think 4e's influence is still a bit too pervasive for my tastes, but considering WotC retained the guy who designed 4e's combat mechanics that didn't surprise me either.


In 2e I like the fact that a character can take a sword to the gut or several arrows in the back at any point. There is no 50% percent rule that prevents that narrative on round 1. It also means that healing magic is needed. In this case a cleric walks into a war hospital and starts using his healing magic, he doesn't just return a day later to find the place empty and people smirking at his useless magic. In other words, healing magic in the game world isn't made pointless by coddling healing and resting rules or class features like Second Wind.

 

[Neonchameleon]

We're pretending, though. You don't have to actually starve yourself in order to play a character who is starving, just like you don't have to get stabbed in order to play a character who has been stabbed. I don't need to suffer in order to play a character who is suffering.

You don't need to suffer yourself in order to play a character that is suffering - but it helps. It's even the underpinning of the Method school of acting, to both find and create parallels between yourself and what your character is experiencing.

Saying "I don't need something" is a world away from "It isn't useful". For that matter "It isn't useful to me" is not the same thing as "It isn't useful."

I mean, I guess you could add that sort of thing, if you really wanted to do. It's like mood music. It doesn't hurt anything, as long as you don't sacrifice anything to achieve it.

On the contrary. A world simulation engine is like mood music. As long as you don't mind playing in a world flat enough that you can fit the entire rules to the world into a series of books it does very little as long as you don't sacrifice anything to achieve it. And a hacked tabletop wargame with strong metagame knowledge being one of the drivers to skilled play and that was never intended to be a world simulator makes for a pretty poor world simulator at that. Other than clarity and consistency of results it does absolutely nothing to encourage roleplaying - and indeed undermines the plausibility of the setting.

FATE, in particular, sacrifices everything important by asking the player to consider meta-game concerns, such as the story and fate points.

Even if Fate Points were worse than the way hit points underline the extreme artificiality of the world (which to an experienced player they aren't), detailed rather than simply predictable resolution mechanics didn't encourage metagame play, and the players themselves had to focus on the story it would be a bargain.

For that matter a worldbuilding model you need to think about is also more intrusive than Fate Points - you do not think about physics when you are trying to catch a ball. It does not matter what mechanics you are thinking about - when you are thinking about mechanics you are seldom thinking about how your character would act.

Just about the only worse "RPG", in that regard, would be Dread. By contrast, your 4E example shows how this sort of thing can be done well.

Dread. The system that for a horror game routinely leaves the players' hands shaking - and PCs bottling attempts because their characters are scared.

 

[ZzarkLinux]

I don't know that (spells that depend on HP) ever came up, in terms of spells that depended on such. Most of those spells were high-level spells that we never saw. The only one I can think of that actually saw use was Sleep, which was always a gamble anyway since you didn't know how much it would affect.

Good to know that low level 2e didn't have that. Low level D&D seems to be an entirely separate game from mid-level-plus. I almost wish that they stuck with only 10 levels in 5e. Yeah the internet backlash was fun to read, but sticking to ten levels would let them make the overall class design better and help them better focus the D&D brand's identity (versus the current brand of big-tent back-compatible whatever-sells Forgotten Realms brand).

D&D is not a game of subtleties. Just as it's incredibly obvious which class someone belongs to (if any), so it is also obvious what their alignment is - which is to say, anyone can tell by looking, unless you're specifically making an effort to hide it.

Your view of D&D is both alien and intruiging to me. Now I know how 4e Star Pact warlock feels I'd like to play a psychologist in your campaign, and see how I can abuse it
[sblock]
>>A troubled NPC enters the Psych Office in Saelorn's world ...<<
NPC Patient: Doc, I'm stressed out. Can you help me?
PC Doctor: Sure.
>>The doctor grabs a stack of papers ...<<
Doctor: Look at these pictures and tell me "What class do you see?"
>>The doctor shows a picture of a human holding a sword<<
Patient: I see a fighter.
>>The doctor shows a picture of a human holding a bow<<
Patient: Uhh ... another fighter class, I guess.
>>The doctor shows a picture of an elf holding a bow<<
Patient: Uhh ... that's just an elf right? I mean, elf is a class right?
Doctor: Certainly.
>>The doctor shows a picture of Clark Kent wearing both his glasses and his superman jersey<<
Patient: Hmmm. That's tough.
Doctor: Take your time.
Patient: ...
Patient: I feel conflicted. Part of me wants to say Expert (Newsreporter), but I also want to say Fighter.
Doctor: Well, let's try another one.
>>The doctor shows a picture of Tarquin from Order of the Stick<<
Patient: Hmm. I'm still confused.
Doctor: Then let's try something else.
>>The doctor grabs another stack of papers ...<<
Doctor: Look at these pictures and tell me "What alignment do you see?"
>>The doctor shows a picture of a paladin<<
Patient: Lawful Good
>>The doctor shows a picture of Asmodeous<<
Patient: Lawful Evil
>>The doctor shows a picture of an elf<<
Patient: Chaotic Good.
Patient: Wait, can chaos ever be good? It's kinda shortsighted and unreliable to be chaotic. Does "chaotic good" even exist?
Doctor: It depends on who you ask.
>>The doctor shows a picture of a kender<<
Patient: Hmm. I'm not sure of alignment. But for some reason I'm feeling a little salty.
Doctor: Well, let's try another one.
>>The doctor shows a picture of Batman<<
Patient: ...
Patient: I don't know. I feel conflicted again.

Doctor: Hmm, this does seem a little concerning.
Patient: So what does it mean doc? Am I crazy?
Doctor: Well, the results are inconclusive.
Doctor: I know. How about I only charge you two gold for this session?
Doctor: You can take these pictures home and think about them.
Doctor: Then come back tomorrow if you are still feeling conflicted.
Patient: Okay.
>>The NPC pays and leaves<<
>>The doctor earns 500 XP<<
>>The doctor earns 2 gp<<
>>The doctor smiles and lights a cigar. He ponders the patient's responses, and awaits more gold to spend.<<
[/sblock]

 

[ZzarkLinux]

I would say if (the concussion) isn't causing penalties to the player it would be (hp damage), but if you're talking serious concussions like when NFL players walk over and line up in the wrong huddle and such, then no. That's more than just hit point loss.

I was going to disagree, and cite how a bully can only shove a 3e commoner 1d4 times before the next shove makes the commoner unconscious (and a cat could only head-bump a 3e commoner 1d4 times too...) But now it kinda makes sense. A small hit gives a minor concussion, but the player "shakes it off" in a few seconds. This does HP damage, but that's okay because hp doesn't affect your fighting ability stats. I guess that meat-points mean death by many cuts, bruises, and hard shoves. But not fractures, and the healing rate seems to disagree, as below.

If you're playing HP as just a generic "how beaten up you are", then concussions mostly don't happen, for the same reason we don't worry about sprains or broken bones. If you're playing HP as including cuts and fractures that real people might suffer from combat, but you're ignoring the penalties (...), then you could easily say that a concussion is the real-world effect which corresponds to HP damage.

None of these definitions really work for me. Concussions definitely do happen in combat; we live in a world where hockey's Dennis Wideman gets hit hard (concussed?), then hits a referee and concusses him. Note: Dennis sits out 1 period (20 minutes), then comes back into the game. So combat does have hard hits, and I'd say that hockey players have higher Endurance than most people, so it stands that they have lots of HP.

Then you say that HP could include cuts, fractures, and concussions. I disagree. All of these cannot co-exist, due to the definition of overnight healing. In 3e, you only heal level-hp-per-night. So to get to full hitpoints, let's say it takes 5 days, and cuts / concussions don't heal in 5 days. In 4e/5e, you heal all-hp-per-night. So everything heals in one night, and fractures / concussions don't heal in one night. Some concussions heal in minutes, and fractures take weeks.

I guess this all this means that D&D HP breaks my suspension of disbelief. Regardless of edition, which is why I play the plot-points game.

What is the nightly healing rate in 2e (low level)?
Are there massive damage rules in 2e (low level)?
The damage you take in 2e must match the overnight healing rate, right?