What is it with these modules on the internet?

[KarinsDad]

If anyone else was complaining about detrimental house rules being sprung on them in the middle of a combat, I'd be sympathetic. But I'm surprised that you're objecting to this. Is turnabout not fair play? or is there some difference between his fumble rules and your AoO rules?

Excuse me, but where exactly did I post that I was bothered by the house rule?

I am bothered by the lethality of the creature, not by the house rule.

And it's great that you guys roleplayed foolhardy PCs to the max. But seeing PC death is gonna be more common when you choose to RP characters with bad tactics. It's not DM punishment -- it's the DM characterizing the world plausibly.

Only in that a house rule modified the outcome. It was not bad tactics when it appears that there is no way for the Cleric to get injured.

That's like saying that it is bad tactics to board up a villager's cottage with a monster inside, then to set the house on fire to kill it and only later find out that the monster is immune to fire.

With the information we had at the time, it was not a bad tactic. I do not think it was necessarily foolhardy for the Ranger to push the button except that he did not let us prepare first. But, that really would have made little difference in the outcome except maybe on who got attacked first.

And, I do not think it was foolhardy at all to ambush the Golem with a method of attack which appeared to look according to the rules as if it was a slam dunk. If there appeared to be any chance that the Golem could actually reach the Cleric, we wound not have done it. But, I’m sure that there are going to be a bunch of experienced gamers who still claim that with 20/20 hindsight, there method is always better and that our players are foolhardy and using bad tactics. Whatever!

 

[KarinsDad]

As for wolfspider's text not acting as a warning to the DM, have you read the module? Or are you so confident that wolfspider's quote was the only information the module gave about the flesh golem that you can claim the module never warns the DM about teh encounter's scariness, all claims to the contrary notwithstanding?

Let's ask him.

Wolfspider, was there a warning in the text, or was the quoted passage and the CR 3 information what you were talking about by a warning?

 

[nameless]

Well, obviously I can't show you exactly that. But a vampire commoner is CR3, has DR 15/+1, fast healing 5, the ability to dominate, the ability to INSTANTLY kill any first level PC hit (2 negative levels of damage with a hit), the ability to call 3d6 wolves to aid it, and so on. A brown bear has no DR or spell immunities, but is CR3, has 51 HP, does 38 points of damage/round if all attacks hit and can spread that damage out in 3 roughly equal packages (two of which are very likely to hit most first-level PCs), and can attack intelligently. If I were a first-level party , I'd much rather face the flesh golem than either of these opponents.
Daniel

Obviously you quote the strengths of these opponents and not the weaknesses. The Vampire Commoner has only 1d12 for HP... a single spell can put it under. Obviously the party can take some lumps since they might not see the threat immediately, but once they do, it would be a piece of cake. The CR 3 bear is also a combat powerhouse, but has low AC, and a number of 1st level spells calm or otherwise neutralize the animal automatically, leave alone the fact that a bear is usually not inclined to attack people.

The flesh golem, on the other hand, 5 times the HP of the Vampire, with better defenses, and the damage potential of the bear. Part of its defense is spell immunity, making the spellcasters useless, and part is DR, making the fighters using non-magic weapons useless. The weakness of the golem is its programmed nature, which the players exploited, but the DM decided to nullify. I can forgive the DM and the players, but this was badly designed encounter.

-nameless

 

[CRGreathouse]

**Spoilers**






Running text:

The flesh golem was badly damaged in the fire, but it will astill fight, ating on the last set of instructions given.

Boxed text:

Flesh Golem (1): CR 3; Large Construct; HD 9d10 (35); Init -1; Spd 30 ft (can't run); AC 15; Atks 2 slams +10 melee; DMG slam 1d8+3; Face/Reach 5 ft by 5 ft/10 ft; SA Berserk; SQ Construct, magic immunity, DR 15/+1; AL N; SV Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +3; Str 16, Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1.

While it is true that the flesh golem is supposed to be a tougher monster based on published D20 rules, This particular flesh golem is much weaker because of the damage it sustained in the fire. It has lost a great deal of its strength and health, weakening its attacks and lowering tis hit point total.

 

[KarinsDad]

What about an allip? Or a mummy? Or a wearboar? Or a werewolf?

Last I saw, these creatures are not immune to three of the four basic weapons low level PCs have: spells, weapons, turning, and fire.

The Flesh Golem is immune to 3 of the 4 (if you consider that we only had one magic weapon in the group) and a Flesh Golem with 35 hit points is pretty darn resistant to fire. Obviously more potent than CR 3. Granted, fire slows it down, but nothing a partial charge will not fix.

Magic Missiles will affect every creature you listed. Turning will affect two of the creatures you listed. Offensive non-mind affecting spells will effect all of the creatures and mind affecting spells will affect two out of four. Every creature you listed will be affected by fire and with fewer hit points, these creatures, would not last as long against it.

The golem is +10 to hit. It hits almost every time and can get two attacks per round against anyone meleeing with it. The Allip is +3 to hit. The Mummy is +6 to hit. The Wereboar is +0 or +3 to hit. The Werewolf is +0 or +3 to hit. All of these creatures get a single attack per round.

We can argue out the ying yang as to relative CRs, but do you really think that halving the damage and dropping 30% of it’s hit points REALLY drops it 4 levels of CR from 7 to 3?

I don’t. Not even close.

Night and day between the creatures that you listed and the Golem. The Golem almost always hits against first level AC 14 to 17 characters and can hardly be damaged. The creatures you listed are much more susceptible to spell forms of damage, have fewer hit points and do not have nearly the offensive capability. Granted, they have special types of damage that the Golem does not, but basically, those are not lethal if you can get the characters to a Temple.

The Golem is about a CR 5 encounter.

In any case, you had six characters in your party instead of the recommended four that CRs are based on, so a CR 3 encounter should have been challenging but not impossible--with proper preparation, sound tactics, and a somewhat healthy group of glory-seekers, that is.

Yes, so the monster was even MORE of a threat for the recommended four PCs.

Plus, not knowing it was there at all prevents you from preparing spells properly. It is hidden in a room. It is immune to practically every attack except fire that most first level characters may have.

Sounds like a killer monster to me.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The Golem is about a CR 5 encounter.

No, it's about CR 4.

 

[Wolfspider]

Well, I've pretty much exhausted my willingness to participate in this thread. I'm sure we could take apart every single adventure out there and find some questionable encounter *** SPOILERS from the roper in The Sunless Citadel to the party-killing encounter in the gatehouse of RTTTEE to (arguably) the golem in Dead Fire END SPOILERS *** to criticize as bad adventure design. CR helps make sure that encounters are balanced, but it's not a perfect system.

Karinsdad, if you really feel as strongly about the poor design of this adventure, I suggest that you participate in Mortality.net's online chat with Tony Bounds on March 1st. He's one of the authors of Dead Fire, and I'm sure he would welcome your comments and criticisms and might even provide some further clarification about the nature of the encounter.

One more thing about flesh golems. They can't run. First level characters can run, however, and they should excercise this ability as often as they can.

 

[Kobold Curry Chef]

Interesting thread. A lot of good points have been raised on all sides of the arguments. Here's my takes on what I've read, given with the disclaimer that I've not read the module in question:

* Knowing when to exercise the better part of valor is a skill lost to many D&D players these days.
* On the other hand, if that flesh golem had to be defeated in order to successfully complete the adventure, it was too powerful for 1st-level characters.
* On the other hand, if it was just an interesting hazard of the adventure, no big deal, unless...
* If the characters have no way of knowing that pushing the button would unleash the golem, that's a bad design.
* If the characters know that pushing the button might unleash a golem, and push it anyway, c'est la vie.
* New DMs should never introduce house rules. They don't have the experience to know what effects these rules might have.
* Always get the mango lassi with the vindaloo.
* There's a big difference in power level between 1st and 3rd level characters. This is why 3e modules aren't written for "1st-3rd level" anymore, but for "four 1st level characters."
* The idea to tie the magic sword to the quarterstaff was outstanding.
* On the other hand, not resting up first wasn't such a good idea. When going up against a very tough foe, it's foolish to give up any advantage or resource at your disposal.
* Finally, looks like the party came out all right--the results could have been a lot worse! 1st-level characters are incredibly fragile; I would have expected several more fatalities.

In any case, this sounds like a good story you can tell at conventions and what not for years to come, and ultimately, isn't that a big part of the fun?

-KCC

 

[Berandor]

Excuse me, but where exactly did I post that I was bothered by the house rule?

I am bothered by the lethality of the creature, not by the house rule.

That's fine, because...

Only in that a house rule modified the outcome. It was not bad tactics when it appears that there is no way for the Cleric to get injured.

Anyways...

Last I saw, these creatures are not immune to three of the four basic weapons low level PCs have: spells, weapons, turning, and fire.

The Flesh Golem is immune to 3 of the 4 (if you consider that we only had one magic weapon in the group) and a Flesh Golem with 35 hit points is pretty darn resistant to fire. Obviously more potent than CR 3. Granted, fire slows it down, but nothing a partial charge will not fix.

I don't accept that. If your cleric would have rested and cast 2 "magic weapon", you would have three magic weapons to hit the golem, not just one.

And a shadow, for example, is turned like a 5HD-creature (and your cleric had turned all the time before), can have up to 36 hp, has a touch attack, is incorporeal, deals Strength damage, and is immune to crits and most spells.
It is also a very tough CR 3 enounter... although I would agree that the Golem would be CR 4.

However, I think if you'd rescued your friends, rested, healed them sufficiently and cast 2 magic weapons, then the cleric would have lured the golem out to attack him on the platform, while the others then sprang into action to attack from flanking position, once each, you could have had a chance, since the golem had been hurt before.

And what better revenge can there be than to get your friends, prepare, then go in and kill the bast'ard!??

Berandor

 

[S'mon]

* Finally, looks like the party came out all right--the results could have been a lot worse! 1st-level characters are incredibly fragile; I would have expected several more fatalities.

That's my outstanding impression - the party seem to have got off very lightly considering the tough opponent. I ran a 1st level game today with 4 1st level PCs and an NPC Cleric-1. The adventure was generated completely in accordance with the 3e Encounter Level rules. I had a total party kill inside an hour: after a couple of fights the PCs decided to rest up overnight within 1/4 mile of the dungeon. A sally force of 8 orcs and a Cleric-1 found them. I'd made the orcs weaker than standard in equipment: longsword & small shield, not great axe - but a couple of lucky Command spells from the evil cleric, a few bad rolls, and TPK.