What is it with these modules on the internet?

Well, 8 orcs should toast a party of four 1st-level characters no matter what. Orcs are tough. Orcs are scary. A party of 8 orcs is EL 4 or 5! An EL 1 encounter is *two* orcs. Changing the weapon from a greataxe to a longsword will not matter very much. :(
 

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Pielorinho

Iron Fist of Pelor
Again comparing the vampire to the flesh golem:

The vampire is immune to 2 of the four weapons available to first level PCs: weapons and turning (unless you can reliably score 22+ on your turning rolls: vampires turn as if they had 4 more HD than they have). True, it's not immune to fire or spells (except for cold and electrical spells and mind-affecting spells), but it has fast-healing 5, which the flesh golem doesn't have. Couple that with damage reduction, and a vampire brb1 could live a long time. Heck, so could a vampire Clr1, who would also be CR3 and could cast protection from good and cause light wounds and other fun spells on itself. And the flesh golem can hit twice/rnd, but the vampire can autokill with each hit. And the flesh golem can't do anything in combat besides hit its enemies, whereas the vampire has all sorts of funky powers. Would you really rather fight the flesh golem than fight the vampire?

And the bear has vulnerabilities, sure -- but it also has hugely more HP than the flesh golem, can move faster, can run, can fight intelligently, and can dish out way, way more damage (3 hits at 13 HP each/rnd, as opposed to two hits/rnd at the 7 hp each).

I suspect, KD, that you taught your players that plans that look foolproof according to the rules (but not necessarily from a PC's perspective) are metagaming plans, and that seat-of-your-pants houserules are necessary to keep such plans from working all the time.
 
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S'mon

Legend
Kobold Curry Chef said:
Well, 8 orcs should toast a party of four 1st-level characters no matter what. Orcs are tough. Orcs are scary. A party of 8 orcs is EL 4 or 5! An EL 1 encounter is *two* orcs. Changing the weapon from a greataxe to a longsword will not matter very much. :(

Well, I think 8 orcs is supposedly EL 4, EL+3 to a 1st-level party, "tough but survivable". With the cleric probably a 50-50. But the fact is that I rolled it on the random dungeon table at the back of the 1st-print PHB: "1d8 orcs" - I rolled '8'. Changing damage from 1d12+3 to 1d8+2 _does_ make a big difference, BTW. But 1st level PCs are fragile and die easily even without throwing flesh golems at them. The orcs had the cleric with them because when the PCs camped outside the dungeon the dungeon warlord told the cleric to take a force and go get them.
 


Have a look at the DMG's random dungeon encounter charts, and compare:

1st-level: 1d4+2 goblins (no orcs at all in this list!)
2nd-level: 1d4+2 orcs

EL+3 is a relative thing. There is a much, much bigger difference between EL 1 and EL 4 than there is between EL 12 and EL 15.

Anyway, it's an easy mistake to make. I know I've overdone it on encounters in my current campaign more than often enough... :(
 

Willtell

First Post
Kobold Curry Chef said:

* Knowing when to exercise the better part of valor is a skill lost to many D&D players these days.
* On the other hand, if that flesh golem had to be defeated in order to successfully complete the adventure, it was too powerful for 1st-level characters.
* On the other hand, if it was just an interesting hazard of the adventure, no big deal, unless...
* If the characters have no way of knowing that pushing the button would unleash the golem, that's a bad design.
* If the characters know that pushing the button might unleash a golem, and push it anyway, c'est la vie.
* New DMs should never introduce house rules. They don't have the experience to know what effects these rules might have.
* Always get the mango lassi with the vindaloo.
* There's a big difference in power level between 1st and 3rd level characters. This is why 3e modules aren't written for "1st-3rd level" anymore, but for "four 1st level characters."
* The idea to tie the magic sword to the quarterstaff was outstanding.
* On the other hand, not resting up first wasn't such a good idea. When going up against a very tough foe, it's foolish to give up any advantage or resource at your disposal.
* Finally, looks like the party came out all right--the results could have been a lot worse! 1st-level characters are incredibly fragile; I would have expected several more fatalities.

In any case, this sounds like a good story you can tell at conventions and what not for years to come, and ultimately, isn't that a big part of the fun? :)

-KCC

In the module the golem is just standing in the room not in a cubboard (sp?), and the party have to defeat it before they can search the room, which they need to do. searching the room allows them to find a wand they need.
 

Gothmog

First Post
It sounds to me like the adventure was well written and shouldn't be a problem. Just because a monster is an an adventure doesn't mean the characters have to kill/defeat it. Throwing in the occasional powerful beastie lets the PCs know the world doesn't revolve around them, and that if they press their lcuk, bad things can happen because for the most part the gods (DM) won't overly protect them. I know D&D is combat heavy (which is fine), but there is also the assumption with a lot of people that if a creature is in an adventure, it is supposed to be/has to be killed. Part of this is seems to be due to the abstract nature of combat in D&D, but also the relative ease with which characters can defeat an encounter with a CR even with their levels or even somewhat above.

In some ways the CR system is nice to help a GM determine how tough a given critter is, but in other ways, the CR system has some problems. It assumes that PCs are all maxed out in equipment appropriate for their given level, but the determination for what is appropriate is given in relevance for a fairly high-magic world. I'm not trying to start anything here, but I have noticed that a lot of players and DMs assume that simply because a critter is CR whatever, that it is fair game for their PCs, when it might be more useful to take into account the individual strengths of the party when determining how tough an encounter is. So in some ways, the CR is somewhat misleading, not to mention the determination of a CR is never really detailed, so its a pretty subjective measurement that can have some major impact on the characters (XP and treasure-wise).

The other thing I have noticed is that some people seem to dislike the fumble rules some GMs like to throw into their games- I say to each his own, as long as the game is fun. I personally like fumble rules- they add an extra degree of uncertainty to the game and make combat seem more realistic (and I know its a fantasy game- but people do stumble and make mistakes in the midst of stressful situations, such as combat). I don't think fumble rules screw the PCs any more than critical hits do- the monsters are still susceptable to fumbles, just as they can still score critical hits. In fact, PCs have a big edge with critical hits compared with most monsters- most creatures use natural weapons that have a 20/x2 range, while PCs can tailor weapons for various situations. Also, since the DM makes WAY more attack rolls than PCs, the total number of monster fumbles should be much larger than the number of PC fumbles- and smart players should be able to find a way to capitalize on this.

Well, I degressed WAY off my original intent with this post. :p I had been thinking about some game balance questions regarding CR and fumbles, I since they were brought up here, I guess this is as good of a place as any to ask what everyone thinks.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Willtell said:

In the module the golem is just standing in the room not in a cubboard (sp?), and the party have to defeat it before they can search the room, which they need to do. searching the room allows them to find a wand they need.

Are you sure that the Golem is not supposed to be in a small room behind a secret door?

Our DM does not seem like the kind of person who would alter monster starting locations in a module yet.

I'll ask him though.

In any case, the Golem was in a small secret room in our encounter with it and did not come out (nor could he be found) until we hit the button.
 

7thlvlDM

Explorer
Only a flesh golem?

That's nothing, I'm constantly pitting my players against challenge ratings that are off the chart (i.e., no experience listed for their level). It's much more exciting then letting them mow down countless goblins, and the cool thing is, they always survive!

Greyhawk campaign two years ago: A party of three 1st level characters go up against Baphomet, demon lord of minotaurs. I only used his 1st edition stats (12 HD I think) against their 3E characters, and one of the PCs was turned into a troll by a troll god trapped in a stone idol, so he could take some punishment. They had Baphomet on the run and by the time they reached 3rd level, and gnome illusionist struck him insane with a prismatic spray cast from a book of infinite spells on one of the lower levels of the Temple of Elemental Evil. They couldn't really touch him, but neither was he a treat (unless you attacked him) because the insanity was permanent. They just had the temple resealed, and moved on...

Forgotten Realms/Planescape campaign started this January: Four 1st level characters against a Medusa/lvl 6 sorceress and her Oni body guards. Two of the characters were turned to stone, but they got her down to 3 hit points and she ran away. At 2nd level, they came out victorious against 2 Thayan Golems (CR 7 each, if I remember correctly, and damage reduction +1/10). None of them had a magic weapon, so what did they use? Tanglefoot bags! Their idea caught me completely by surprised but they got both golems down to 0 Dex!

-7th
 

Nightfall

Sage of the Scarred Lands
Well if you hated Dead Fire, I'm not sure what you'll think of White Robes, Black Hearts series then. :) I know I like and so did my players (at least when I was running them through part of it)
 

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