D&D General What Is Magic, Even?

[Leatherhead]

Magic is the Physics of the D&D world.

 

[Shiroiken]

Magic is the power to manipulate reality; and Mortals can manipulate it in various ways. Bards, Sorcerers, and Wizards learn how to manipulate it directly (or can do so innately, in the case of sorcerers). Clerics, Druids, and Warlocks, however, gain their power thru an intermediary. In both cases, the mortal form can only channel a certain amount of it (represented by spell slots). Powerful creatures, such as celestials, fiends, and even the gods, can access great amounts of it directly, and many have the power to channel it into chosen servants.

 

[Charlaquin]

Are you wondering it there is a difference between Divine and Arcane magic?
Or between magic and spells?
Or something else?

I think I would agree with you that generally anything that can't be done with science or technology is magic, whether it is by some arcane ritual or divine will. It is all magic

Where it gets murky is technology can replicate a lot of things that appear magical. So a "god's" power could simply be advanced alien tech - if that is what you want it to be (kinda how Thor explained it in the first Thor Marvel movie)

I think that’s a very modern, scientific view of magic. A more historical, spiritual view of magic would say that technology is a form of magic.

 

[gyor]

Okay, so, a recently closed thread almost had an interesting discussion buried in it, but because it was related to emotionally charged topics, it wasn’t ever gonna happen there.

So let’s try it here!

What the heck is magic!?

I post this in the context of dnd, because I am not satisfied with divine magic in dnd. Now, it is my opinion that IRL religious/mythological miracles are magic. Full stop.

Odin and his brothers breathing life and thought into the first people? Magic.

Burning bush acting as a conduit for god’s voice? Magic.

I genuinely cannot fathom what definition of magic precludes these things from being magic, as such, so I’m curious what others think on this topic.

Now, we have to avoid arguing about religion here, so we should try to keep examples from RL faiths to a minimum and not dig into the theology that underpins them too much, but I think there is space here for a very interesting discussion of what magic is, what separates mortal magic vs that of the divine vs the magic of lesser spirits and powers, etc.

Now, what is magic to you?

Actually Neoplatonists would not and did not concider the acts of Gods magic, no matter how miraculous, not even the miracles of faith were considered magic. Goetia was considered magic and disliked because it was seen as focusing on more earthly practical pursuits.

It really depends on the definition of magic one uses.

Now in D&D 5e what is seen as magic usually invovles the weave directly or indirectly for what it is worth. But "magic" in D&D really just exploits a unque form of energy, so it's almost more alt reality science then truely mysterious "magic".

 

[gyor]

In my home games/setting:

Magic is the manipulation of elemental energies and material through arcane formulae that is limited by the laws of the material world.

Miracle and Divine Intervention describes the works of powerful supernatural entities that alter reality without respect to the laws of the material world.

A wizard (sorcerer, etc.) casts spells by applying the formula that manipulates the elements. To cast “Fly” is to manipulate the element of air, for example.

A cleric (paladin, warlock, etc.) petitions a superior being to intervene or to grant a portion of its power to the petitioner. These prayers are not spells because they depend on the divine will (or patron’s will), and not on any natural element or formulaic reaction. A warlock that casts “Fly” is not manipulating the element of air - they are asking their patron to break the normal rules of the world and cause them to fly.

I wouldn't put Warlock in the same category as clerics, there is a reason why Warlocks are arcane casters. They get access to a form of unique magical energy usually from a plane via patrons who allow the Warlock to exploit the Patrons link to that source of power, but the Patron themselves aren't the source of power, they are the access point for that power. For Divine Magic on the other hand the Gods are the source of power, directly or indirectly, by empowering Primal Spirits or Oaths.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I guess in D&D it's whatever you want it to be. Most fantasy novels have their own 'source' of magic - The Will and the Way, True Names, secrets from the Old Ones, inner power, outer power, psionics, preserving/defiling, advanced technology, blessings, divine intervention, the list goes on.

Is Star Trek's Q magic? Does Loki do magic in the Avengers movies?

Yes and yes, IMO.

In my home games/setting:

Magic is the manipulation of elemental energies and material through arcane formulae that is limited by the laws of the material world.

Miracle and Divine Intervention describes the works of powerful supernatural entities that alter reality without respect to the laws of the material world.

A wizard (sorcerer, etc.) casts spells by applying the formula that manipulates the elements. To cast “Fly” is to manipulate the element of air, for example.

A cleric (paladin, warlock, etc.) petitions a superior being to intervene or to grant a portion of its power to the petitioner. These prayers are not spells because they depend on the divine will (or patron’s will), and not on any natural element or formulaic reaction. A warlock that casts “Fly” is not manipulating the element of air - they are asking their patron to break the normal rules of the world and cause them to fly.

Interesting. I’d say that in core dnd the Warlock simply learns to cast the spell from their patron, and casts it via ritual and components, manipulating elements like a wizard, but obviously you’re talking about your world.

I say that in part because RAW, a patron cannot take away what has been granted, to the Warlock isn’t really beseeching their patron for the fly spell, they’re casting it.

 

[Charlaquin]

Yes and yes, IMO.



Interesting. I’d say that in core dnd the Warlock simply learns to cast the spell from their patron, and casts it via ritual and components, manipulating elements like a wizard, but obviously you’re talking about your world.

I say that in part because RAW, a patron cannot take away what has been granted, to the Warlock isn’t really beseeching their patron for the fly spell, they’re casting it.

I figured the patron granting the power was the reason warlock spell slots are different. Maybe the warlock performs the verbal, somatic, and material components of the spell, but the patron supplies what ever magical fuel a spell slot represents. The patron grants the warlock two favors, with which they can power their spells. Then they need to contact their patron the next time they rest to beseech it for more.

 

[GMMichael]

Magic is what the other guy's priests do.

Or,

Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. When it is: magic.

 

[gyor]

Magic is what the other guy's priests do.

Or,

Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. When it is: magic.

If it was actually true that matter/energy can't be created, there would be no universe. It's actually that no net energy is created because for all the energy created an equal amount of negative energy is created, for example in the form of gravity.

 

[gyor]

"the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will" this is Aliester Crowley's definition of magic.