What is missing from 4E

[rounser]

I overwhelmingly enjoy the approach 4e took with this much more.

It doesn't support the kind of heroes we read about in novels, though. They help each other, but can fight just as well alone. A D&D party is not a military unit, until now. Conan, Pug, and other lone wolves wouldn't feel comfortable in 4E.

D&D isn't a "go team!", "and I'll form the head!" type game, because it's against type - fantasy heroes aren't about that for the most part. I'm suprised some people seem to think it is. It's just another gamist alienation of D&D away from the genre it supposedly is supposed to convey.

 

[jensun]

It doesn't support the kind of heroes we read about in novels, though. They help each other, but can fight just as well alone. A D&D party is not a military unit, until now. Conan and other lone wolves wouldn't feel comfortable in 4E.

D&D isn't a "go team!", "and I'll form the head!" type game, because it's against type - fantasy heroes aren't about that for the most part. I'm suprised people think it is. It's just another gamist alienation of D&D away from the genre it supposedly is supposed to convey.

Conan fought with allies whenever the option was available to him and the ability of a PC in any game to act as a lone unit is entirely dependant on the opposition the GM puts against him.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

3e was only a group of primadonnas if your actual real life group was a bunch of primadonnas. 4e hasn't made your real life group of primadonnas any less irritating, its just tied their legs together.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

3e was only a group of primadonnas if your actual real life group was a bunch of primadonnas. 4e hasn't made your real life group of primadonnas any less irritating, its just tied their legs together.

The 3E mechanics encouraged primadonnas. The 4E mechanics discourage primadonnas.

 

[rounser]

The 4E mechanics discourage primadonnas.

Unfortunately for 4E, fantasy is mostly all about prima donnas.

 

[Jack99]

Unfortunately for 4E, fantasy is mostly all about prima donnas.

Weird, because D&D is a cooperative game, focused on cooperative play. Are you saying that D&D isn't fantasy?

 

[rounser]

Weird, because D&D is a cooperative game, focused on cooperative play.

There's a difference between heroes who are independently powerful cooperating, and heroes whose powers depend on cooperation. That's an instance where 4E design philosophy gets it wrong, IMO.

Are you saying that D&D isn't fantasy?

No, just that 4E simulates popular fantasy poorly in this respect. D&D and 4E are different entities in my mind, anyway.

 

[jensun]

Unfortunately for 4E, fantasy is mostly all about prima donnas.

Nope, not at all. Some is yes but an awful lot isnt.

 

[FireLance]

It doesn't support the kind of heroes we read about in novels, though. They help each other, but can fight just as well alone. A D&D party is not a military unit, until now. Conan, Pug, and other lone wolves wouldn't feel comfortable in 4E.

D&D isn't a "go team!", "and I'll form the head!" type game, because it's against type - fantasy heroes aren't about that for the most part. I'm suprised some people seem to think it is. It's just another gamist alienation of D&D away from the genre it supposedly is supposed to convey.

Anything that keeps lone wolves out of my gaming group is a feature in my book. Unless I'm running a solo adventure, of course, but the way I DM a solo adventure is very different from the way I would DM a group adventure.

I think that's one of the key disjoints between any role-playing game and the fiction that inspired it: most fiction has a single protagonist, while most role-playing games involve a group of protagonists. A solo adventure, regardless of system, will play more closely to most fantasy fiction.

Finally, while there are powers, abilities and entire classes (Leader-types, in particular) that work better in a group than when alone, a PC who avoids these when possible will still be reasonably competent when alone, even if he is slightly more effective in a group ([Sesame Street]That's the power of co-operation![/Sesame Street]).

 

[rounser]

Anything that keeps lone wolves out of my gaming group is a feature in my book.

Concede defeat on the flavour front, so let's retreat into gamisms as a way to "win" the argument.

I agree, 4E sacrifices flavour and simulation for gamist needs. That's what I'm arguing.