D&D 5E What is the appeal of the weird fantasy races?

[doctorbadwolf]

The "problems" don't go away with either medium size or fey. They still can't climb a wall and will have problems getting into a room at the inn due to body size and shape(horse).

Ignoring the wall thing for a bit, which plenty of contrary arguments have been provided for and not countered, why on earth would a pony sized centaur have any trouble getting into a room at the inn?

It’s the size of an Irish wolfhound.

Do you give that sort of trouble to Goliaths?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Homebrew or not, RAW allows it. Those are rules. What results from the rules will often be homebrew. Using the combat rules results in a combat unique to the DMs world, making the combat that results from RAW a homebrew.

"This is homebrew"

"No it isn't, these rules allow me to homebrew whatever I want"

I acknowledged that the DM is allowed to homebrew, you acknowledged that it was homebrew. Why does it matter that the DMG gave you a toolkit to make homebrewing easier or not? Especially since I had already recognized that the toolkit in question existed, and since it was specifically for the purposes of homebrew, it didn't count towards a RAW usage of the racial rules.


If I take your argument as you seem to keen on presenting it, then I can play a Selphid by RAW, because a DM could possibly homebrew them. Other RAW races would include Hags, Tarrasques, Dolgaunts, Decepticons, or really anything else, because by RAW a DM could possibly homebrew them, therefore they are a RAW option.

Which, is not what is meant by saying "Rules as Written" since none of those have a written set of official rules for players to use.

For polymorph and Druid shapeshifting, the player controls the contents of the statblock he is using. The DM has no control over it at all.

Wrong. The DM could change anything in that statblock. Raise or lower any of the stats, mess with the HP, alter the AC, all of it.

The player may control their actions, but that does not give them control over the statblock.

Nobody is saying it's the same exact thing. I'm saying that a druid controlling the bear statblock is the same as someone who rolled up a bear, except the druid keeps his mental stats. Using the statblock to play = using the statblock to play.

No it isn't the same.

Centaurs have been large non-fey creatures since 1e(or maybe before) and that didn't change for 5e. Ravnica's change to fey isn't going to be accepted. I wouldn't mind a player playing a small(medium size) centaur, but that doesn't change any of the issues from this thread.

Except for all those issues unique to being large or being over 2,000 lbs.

And it did change in 5e. It changed when they introduced a new type of Centaur. Just like the Minitaur was very different from the normal Centaur.

Also, Ravnica was not the first time that Centuar had been Fey. They were changed from "Monstrous Humanoid" to "Fey" in 4e. In fact, for someone who started the game in 4e, Centaurs have always been Fey, even in the Forgotten Realms.

Were they Fey before 4e? Probably not. They were connected with the Elves and the Forests and all the creatures like Brownies and such, but they were not explicitly Fey to my knowledge, but it doesn't really matter. Changing them to Fey is a trivial excersise of just winding back the clock one edition.

The "problems" don't go away with either medium size or fey. They still can't climb a wall and will have problems getting into a room at the inn due to body size and shape(horse).

Their body size is not an issue at all. Body shape might be an issue, but it depends on what you mean by "issue". I've had "issues" getting a rolling suitcase into a room, but that wasn't more than an annoyance, something trivially hand-waved the same way I have "issues" eating something as bland as gruel. Or the issues of bathroom arrangements or hair care.

And, though I know your response is "but that is silly, it couldn't possibly work!" The Centaur playable race rules do infact say that they can climb. And even if they can't, what, 85% of these issues are solved with some rope, block and tackle, and a leather sling?

Oh wait, now we will add in that it isn't just a wall, but they need to climb a wall stealthily, or they need to climb the wall while being chased by monsters, or they need to climb the wall while being shot by archers, or something else to make it so that that solution won't work.

And I can give you about another dozen solutions to that, and then we'll just go around and around and around. But, remember, the discussion never focused on Centaurs climbing castle walls at night or anything else. It focused on ladders and stairs in an inn. It focused on climbing the rigging in a ship, which hell, lets give that one to that poster, can't can't climb a ship's rigging. Guess what? They can still do plenty of other things on a ship. And none of these things. None of them focused on a time crunch due to combat. So, by adding in that element, you are acknowledging that all of those other problems are solved, because you need the immediacy of combat and threat to make it back into an issue.

Which then opens us up to all sorts of other solutions.

 

[Remathilis]

Do you give that sort of trouble to Goliaths?

I kept going back to this, because in reality there should be an issue with tieflings getting their tails caught in doors or being unable to sit in closed-backed chairs. Or a race with clawed fingers being unable to do fine manipulation (like using silverware or sewing). Goliaths and Firbolgs breaking chairs and beds, while halflings and gnomes making climb and jump checks to reach the counter or get on a barstool. Lets not EVEN get into how most races couldn't wear certain types of clothes (hooved tieflings and boots, minotaurs and helms, anything with wings and shirts) or the fact that a 40 pound halfling and a 300 pound goliath requires the same amount of food and water.

At a certain point, you either end up writing cultural and biological thesis on the nature of fantasy races or say #%@! it, its magical and play what you want.

 

[Oofta]

I kept going back to the issue with tieflings getting their tails caught in doors or being unable to sit in closed-backed chairs. Or a race with clawed fingers being unable to do fine manipulation (like using silverware or sewing). Goliaths and Firbolgs breaking chairs and beds, while halflings and gnomes making climb and jump checks to reach the counter or get on a barstool. Lets not EVEN get into how most races couldn't wear certain types of clothes (hooved tieflings and boots, minotaurs and helms, anything with wings and shirts) or the fact that a 40 pound halfling and a 300 pound goliath requires the same amount of food and water.

At a certain point, you either end up writing cultural and biological thesis on the nature of fantasy races or say #%@! it, its magical and play what you want.

There's a big difference between having trouble sitting in a chair (maybe sitting sideways?) and weighing several hundred pounds while having four hooves instead of feet. Shirts and helms can be custom fitted, maybe those firbolgs and goliaths should break things not made for them sometimes.

If you just want to say "it's just a game" that's fine for you and your table. It's just not a good answer for everyone. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Accaris]

I will say thank goodness for Heroforge. Without them, it might have been challenging to have ratfolk in my world, since Heroforge is literally the only site where you can make a ratfolk hero who doesn't look a Skaven, nor do they look like a chibi Mouseguard toon.

Beyond gameplay considerations, that's one practical aspect of having exotic non-human races that some people gloss over. In this day and age, being unable to find a suitable miniature for your PC can be frustrating (back in the day we just used our imagination, but I digress.)

 

[Maxperson]

Still, it’s odd to argue using MM centaurs as the basis of your arguments when there is a PC centaur option, and no reason to think anyone else means the MM monster when they talk about playable centaurs, all without any explanation that you’re referring to the MM until someone calls out a contradiction.

As I said, I don't mind most of the rules for the Ravnica centaur. Obviously climbing would be more difficult than those rules state, and I wouldn't make them fey. And I'd probably up the hoof damage to 1d8. Then they would basically be a smaller centaur. They also wouldn't be a race that size, but rather just a small centaur, like some humans are 4' and change, instead of close to 6'. I'd allow it as an option, but would also keep open the MM version as an option.

 

[Maxperson]

I acknowledged that the DM is allowed to homebrew, you acknowledged that it was homebrew. Why does it matter that the DMG gave you a toolkit to make homebrewing easier or not? Especially since I had already recognized that the toolkit in question existed, and since it was specifically for the purposes of homebrew, it didn't count towards a RAW usage of the racial rules.

The "tool kit" consists of rules to use to play the game.

If I take your argument as you seem to keen on presenting it, then I can play a Selphid by RAW, because a DM could possibly homebrew them.

That's not my argument as I presented. My argument is that RAW allows that race to be played as a PC, not that you can just choose it. Obviously the DM has to approve it.

Other RAW races would include Hags, Tarrasques, Dolgaunts, Decepticons, or really anything else, because by RAW a DM could possibly homebrew them, therefore they are a RAW option.

If the DM wants to allow it, sure. I'd say no, but... And again, my argument is not that it's a RAW option, but that RAW allows it. There are rules in place for that to happen.

Wrong. The DM could change anything in that statblock. Raise or lower any of the stats, mess with the HP, alter the AC, all of it.The player may control their actions, but that does not give them control over the statblock.

Ahh, so you're using controllable differently than I was. The druid controls what the statblock does. That's all that matters for it to meet my example. The DM can also alter any PHB race and class, so the players don't control(in the way you're using it) those, either. They are just using them, just like druids use the bear statblock when shapeshifting and would use the centaur statblock as a PC.

Also, Ravnica was not the first time that Centuar had been Fey. They were changed from "Monstrous Humanoid" to "Fey" in 4e. In fact, for someone who started the game in 4e, Centaurs have always been Fey, even in the Forgotten Realms.

That I didn't know as I skipped that edition.

Were they Fey before 4e? Probably not. They were connected with the Elves and the Forests and all the creatures like Brownies and such, but they were not explicitly Fey to my knowledge, but it doesn't really matter. Changing them to Fey is a trivial excersise of just winding back the clock one edition.\

They were not fey in BECMI, 1e, 2e or 3e.

Their body size is not an issue at all. Body shape might be an issue, but it depends on what you mean by "issue". I've had "issues" getting a rolling suitcase into a room, but that wasn't more than an annoyance, something trivially hand-waved the same way I have "issues" eating something as bland as gruel. Or the issues of bathroom arrangements or hair care.

And, though I know your response is "but that is silly, it couldn't possibly work!" The Centaur playable race rules do infact say that they can climb. And even if they can't, what, 85% of these issues are solved with some rope, block and tackle, and a leather sling?

Silly rules are silly. Horses, even ones with an extra set of hands, cannot climb a vertical wall at 1/4 speed.

Oh wait, now we will add in that it isn't just a wall, but they need to climb a wall stealthily, or they need to climb the wall while being chased by monsters, or they need to climb the wall while being shot by archers, or something else to make it so that that solution won't work.

Nope. It's too silly to allow just based on horses climbing walls. No need for your fallacious additions.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

The "tool kit" consists of rules to use to play the game.

It's in the chapter of the book based off of homebrewing your campaign. It's homebrew, whether or not it's printed in an official book.

 

[Maxperson]

It's in the chapter of the book based off of homebrewing your campaign. It's homebrew, whether or not it's printed in an official book.

"This chapter contains optional rules that you can use to customize your campaign,"

Optional they may be, but they are rules as written.

 

[Scribe]

Lets not EVEN get into how most races couldn't wear certain types of clothes (hooved tieflings and boots, minotaurs and helms, anything with wings and shirts) or the fact that a 40 pound halfling and a 300 pound goliath requires the same amount of food and water.

At a certain point, you either end up writing cultural and biological thesis on the nature of fantasy races or say #%@! it, its magical and play what you want.

Or the fact that in the new optional system, you could even have those 40 Pound Halfling and 300 Pound Goliath with equal Strength...yeah makes total sense.