D&D 5E What is the appeal of the weird fantasy races?

[Azzy]

Sorry Hussar, I still do not agree with this. There are so many differences between FR and Tolkien. Many more than what people give credit for. Just because D&D elves and dwarves share very similar qualities to Tolkien's doesn't make the world "chained" to Tolkien.

I don't think Hussar is implying that there is no other influence, just that Tolkien's shadow loom large over D&D. And even with all those other influences, D&D IS chained to Tolkien with its elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, etc. (much of the main races and monsters) in their familiar Tolkien-esque roles. And what the designers didn't dredge from Tolkien, many DMs and players did.

I love Tolkien, but I'm bored with fantasy that keeps emulating his work. That's why I'm glad that D&D has introduced some non-Tolkien races—it adds a bit of spice (or a lot, if you want—but who doesn't love a good curry?) to the humdrum of the same old same old.

 

[Maxperson]

A Silmaril?

That would make this in the Simarillion most likely? Never read it. In fact, this is literally the first time I've ever heard that story. I was going off of everything I remember hearing from the Hobbit and the LoTR trilogy, which never once mentions a battle so far back in the past.

Okay, but it is still Tolkien and mentioned, so we know the history of the elf/dwarf enmity and it's well deserved.

Other than general grumbling, there was only one act that was presented in the four books I read that seemed to account for bad blood.

One clan of dwarves, betrayed by one elven king. And every dwarf that is ever a major character, comes from that betrayed clan that was set adrift by Smaug.

Your battle in the ancient past is new to me, though it does raise the question of why the dwarves would have expected aid from the elves when facing down the dragon.

I don't think they expected it. Just hoped for it, since their cause seemed hopeless with just them.

 

[Scott Christian]

I don't think Hussar is implying that there is no other influence, just that Tolkien's shadow loom large over D&D. And even with all those other influences, D&D IS chained to Tolkien with its elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, etc. (much of the main races and monsters) in their familiar Tolkien-esque roles. And what the designers didn't dredge from Tolkien, many DMs and players did.

I love Tolkien, but I'm bored with fantasy that keeps emulating his work. That's why I'm glad that D&D has introduced some non-Tolkien races—it adds a bit of spice (or a lot, if you want—but who doesn't love a good curry?) to the humdrum of the same old same old.

I hear you. I just really do not like the word "chained." It has such a negative connotation. But there are so many other races in D&D and so many other cultures. The two worlds look nothing alike outside. Seems to me if there was any apt word to describe its relation to Tolkien, it would be "holding hands."

 

[Chaosmancer]

Okay, but it is still Tolkien and mentioned, so we know the history of the elf/dwarf enmity and it's well deserved.

Okay, but this misses the mark in terms of communicating to the reader.

The Simarillion was published in 1977, the Return of the King was published in 1955. That means that this "well deserved" explanation took place a minimum of 22 years after the end of the series. So, readers of the original trilogy never got this explanation. They had only that the dwarves and elves had a feud, but no origin for that feud beyond the elves betraying the dwarves during the attack from Smaug. And again, it wasn't even all dwarves, just the dwarves from Erebor, who are the only dwarves we really see.

I'm not going to call it a retcon, because I can fully accept that Tolkien planned these events, but if it never hits the page, it doesn't exist in the minds of the audience.


And, just to think about timelines a little bit, the Original release of DnD was from 1974 with the first update also hitting in 1977. Meaning that the enmity between the Dwarves and Elves in DnD is far more likely based on the original LoTR trilogy than it is on the Simarillion since that book had not even been published at the time of the creation of DnD.

 

[Azzy]

Really? You find this trope tiresome.

Yes. It's a dead horse that's been beaten to death. That's why I have elves and dwarves coexisting in a co-mingled society in my home-brew setting.

If it was dwarves and gnomes bickering over mining rights would it suddenly be fresh and not tired?

More so, because it hasn't been done over and over and over again (to my knowledge).

I am genuinely curious, in part, because I have never understood this notion of tired tropes. My reasoning is, if that road is taken then everything, and I do mean everything, is a tired trope. The road of fiction is well travelled. There are no new ideas, plot lines, etc. They are all recycled, and this includes D&D.

Well, it's entirely subjective—what's tired to me may not be so to someone else (especially one that is either new to the trope or someone that has a particular trope). It also helps if an author (or DM) at least gives more depth to it than just "hurr durr, elves and dwarves don't like each other" or only giving lip-service to the enmity.

So I am asking with sincerity, does the gnome-dwarf suddenly make the two races having clashing views tolerable?

A lot more so. Clashing over mining rights is a very realistic source of dispute and makes sense. Of course, it would be weird if all dwarven nations and all gnome nations had this same enmity no matter their location (the integrated dwarf/elf society in my home-brew, for example, exists only in one mountain range—another group of elves, for example, have no contact with dwarves in their native region).

 

[Maxperson]

Okay, but this misses the mark in terms of communicating to the reader.

The Simarillion was published in 1977, the Return of the King was published in 1955. That means that this "well deserved" explanation took place a minimum of 22 years after the end of the series. So, readers of the original trilogy never got this explanation. They had only that the dwarves and elves had a feud, but no origin for that feud beyond the elves betraying the dwarves during the attack from Smaug. And again, it wasn't even all dwarves, just the dwarves from Erebor, who are the only dwarves we really see.

I'm not going to call it a retcon, because I can fully accept that Tolkien planned these events, but if it never hits the page, it doesn't exist in the minds of the audience.


And, just to think about timelines a little bit, the Original release of DnD was from 1974 with the first update also hitting in 1977. Meaning that the enmity between the Dwarves and Elves in DnD is far more likely based on the original LoTR trilogy than it is on the Simarillion since that book had not even been published at the time of the creation of DnD.

I don't think it really matters. If he designed them to be at odds, then it makes sense for his story for them to be at odds. He does not have to explain "enough" of why it happened to end up that way for it to be perfectly fine. Fast forward to D&D and if it draws from Tolkien, that's fine as well.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes. It's a dead horse that's been beaten to death. That's why I have elves and dwarves coexisting in a co-mingled society in my home-brew setting.

Give dwarves pointed ears, stick them in the forests and trees and call them Dwelves.

 

[Azzy]

Is there a part that serves as an actual story? The parts I'd read before abandoning it were a cross between narrated genealogy and textbook.

It's very dry and, at times, reads like a textbook. That said, it's utterly brilliant and, like Herbert's Dune series, shows an incredible amount of world building that informs the setting of the Hobbit and LotR. It was extremely influential to me and my attempts at world building (even if I never put in nearly the same amount of depth into the worlds I create—because, damn, I don't have that kind of obsessive motivation or time and am not a scholarly linguist). If that interests you, do yourself a favor and read it. If not, you likely won't be able (or want) to get past the dryness.

 

[Azzy]

Give dwarves pointed ears, stick them in the forests and trees and call them Dwelves.

I'd rather not.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Give dwarves pointed ears, stick them in the forests and trees and call them Dwelves.

That's just a race of half-dwarf, half-elves.