D&D 5E What is the appeal of the weird fantasy races?

[FrozenNorth]

3rd Edition. Monster Manual.

"Aside from a demeanor that many find disturbing, many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans..."

You do not think bright red skin, huge bulbous growths/horns, and an obvious tail would make someone seem 'weird' in comparison to someone that is 'indistinguishable from...' a human?

I don't know if you have been following the entire thread, but "weird" in this thread hasn't been used to mean "looks different from a human character", it's been used to mean "not one of the standard D&D races" or "not one of the races that the DM allows in their campaign".

So, yes, by that standard, 3rd edition tieflings are "weird".

That wasnt the argument. It was tiefling hunting tiefling. If its Tiefling hunting Devils, then yeah sure.

However it could be as noted X race hunting devils because Y member of said race was in a cult, or is the spawn of a cult, and is planetouched as well.

Seriously? Thank you for telling me what my example was.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Wispling = Halfling Planetouched.
Maeluth = Dwarf Planetouched.
Tiefling = Human Planetouched.

Fiend Folio, 3ed (?)



Correct.

3rd Edition. Monster Manual.

"Aside from a demeanor that many find disturbing, many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans..."

You do not think bright red skin, huge bulbous growths/horns, and an obvious tail would make someone seem 'weird' in comparison to someone that is 'indistinguishable from...' a human?



That wasnt the argument. It was tiefling hunting tiefling. If its Tiefling hunting Devils, then yeah sure.

However it could be as noted X race hunting devils because Y member of said race was in a cult, or is the spawn of a cult, and is planetouched as well.



I would agree! However why?

Because he is fundamentally 'other' than both Human (needs blood, benefits of Vampirism) and Vampire (walk in the daylight, assuming the movie was accurate to the character I dont know, I didnt read the comics).

Which gets back to is the point of tieflings to be so clearly, openly, distinctly 'other' and if so, do they stand out to the point of being 'weird' for a setting and potentially detrimental from the POV of the DM.

Again, I'm all for Tieflings, at least the pre 4e ones, but I do not see them as (outside of mechanics) doing anything really that cannot be RP by another race, UNLESS they depend on looking wildly different, aka the 4e look. They are fundamentally planetouched humans.

Essentially: If they must be so distinctly other, then yes they are 'weird'. I personally do not believe that needs to be case, but that is because I refuse to accept 4e visual representation, and the Asmodeus lore change in my head canon and so for me, Tieflings are not 'required' to play the tropes listed as arguments for their inclusion. It can be done in another race, with a different back story, unless.

1. You need the mechanics of a Tiefling.
2. You want the horns.
3. You specifically are playing within the FR setting within the regions explicitly defined within the Tiefling lore of that period.

Let's switch it up a bit with a couple related questions....

Do you think half-elves need specific stats different from just picking an elf or a human and RPing the character?

Do you think a changeling who almost always looks human should just be played with a human?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah, but there's a dynamic where that ends up making everyone prone to doing that, and bluntly, it can be hard to put things together for a party that stands out as a freakshow and not acknowledge that's what it is; and doing so can distort the game in non-trivial ways.

I know not everyone cares about that sort of thing, but not everyone runs a game to have every PC be a special case; 13th Age's dynamic here is not what everyone is looking for.

It only stands out as a "freak-show" if it is unusual. Remember the truism about New York? Or a similar one about Comic-con?

I mean, if you want to call a diverse set of people traveling together "freaks" that is on you, but nothing about that racial make-up in a void requires that to be true.

 

[Scribe]

I don't know if you have been following the entire thread, but "weird" in this thread hasn't been used to mean "looks different from a human character", it's been used to mean "not one of the standard D&D races" or "not one of the races that the DM allows in their campaign".

So, yes, by that standard, 3rd edition tieflings are "weird".


Seriously? Thank you for telling me what my example was.

You literally said hunter of your own kind, I quoted it a few pages back.

Tiefling own kind? Tiefling.

 

[Scribe]

Let's switch it up a bit with a couple related questions....

Do you think half-elves need specific stats different from just picking an elf or a human and RPing the character?

Do you think a changeling who almost always looks human should just be played with a human?

Yes, to the Half Elf question, as a mechanical difference reflects the difference between the biology of the 3 races.

I have no issue with mechanics being race specific.

No, to the changling, as that would just be a choice the player is making during those moments of play, and mechanically that could be changed as needed.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

That's kind of my feeling on it. I mean, there are absolutely games where you can custom-build a personal background template that has whatever traits you want and then come up with whatever justification for that particular collection--but D&D derivatives are not, for the most part, those games. If things like the combination of mechanical bits, visual bits and presumed background bits are not sufficient justification for separate races, nothing much is or likely can be.

The reason why anyone chooses a race will almost always be one of the following reason (normally a mix of reasons):

1. Roleplay Elements (includes backstory)
2. Mechanical Elements (includes Ability Score array)
3. Visual Elements (includes the visual effects of your abilities)

The race is chosen to fit the character they want.

When I want to brainstorm a build (typically for fun or for a one-shot), I focus more on options 2 and 3. When I'm making a character I'm going to play for a long time, I use all pretty much 3 equally.

If I want to play a person with multiple personalities that deceives others, disguises themselves as others, and infiltrates the enemy bases, I'm not going to play a Centaur. I'm going to be a Changeling, and I'm going to be a class that allows me to magnify this theme (Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, or Warlock). If I want to play a greataxe-wielding, cursing, furious, unstoppable killing machine, I'm not going to play a Goblin, as they get disadvantage on all attack rolls with greataxes and don't even have proficiency with them. I'm going to play a Half-Orc, Goliath, Orc, Dwarf, or Human and pick a class/subclass that allows me to magnify this theme (Battle-Smith Artificer, Barbarian, War Cleric, Fighter, or Paladin). If I want to play a devil-worshipping, cult-running, conspiracy-nut, I'm not going to play a Halfling Peace Cleric, I'm going to play a Tiefling Fiend Warlock/Oathbreaker/Blood-Hunter.

These aren't "humans in funny hats", they're "players in their character suits". No matter what people scream about "mIn-MaXxErS!!!", mechanics matters for the race you pick. The appearance of your character matters, and so does how you intend to roleplay them.

It's not a "funny hat", it's a skin.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Outcast is one of the most basic tropes that could be absolutely applied to any race you can imagine if that race is tightly codified.
Hunter of own kind? Bounty Hunters? I'm stunned you would think this is in any way race specific.
Atoner. Absolutely any race can do something which later generations feel the need to atone for. From betraying ones family or clan, offending ones gods, or perpetrating some kind of evil. The list could be endless, literally.
Bael Turath - Yes, the major cultural hook for the change to 4e style is important, I'll give you that. However hoping for ones lost heritage to return to prominence? Thats a Dwarf Trope if I have ever seen one.
Devilish Heritage - Any fiend planetouched (and there are more than Human based ones) could do this. Its not a cultural issue at all?
Rivalry with Dragonborn - Yes, you are looking at a 4e setting specific hook, but...that doesnt mean I'm wrong. Any race can do this.
Big Horns - You may be kidding, but that still is the major call out here, especially if you are not looking at it from a 4e setting specific POV.

EDIT:

Full disclosure here!

I'm a Tiefling fan. Have been since I was a kid. Well well well before this current version was set in stone by 4e.
I'm a Blood War fan.
I'm a Planescape fan.
I'm all about the Great Wheel Cosmology, and the Upper and Lower Planes are what I'm all about.

So please dont take this as me hating Tieflings. What I dont accept is that the change to Tieflings appearance, has improved anything WHATSOEVER, and that it was at all meaningful or necessary.

To ME (and I'm using caps for emphasis since this thread is touchy and 230+ pages) the part that makes Tieflings a 'Weird' Race, is simply the stupid f'ning 4e Horns.

We didnt need it, and it added nothing of value, while it is a net LOSS to diversity, if played by the default appearance and descriptions and 'all Tieflings are Asmodeous blah blah' trash from 4e.

So yeah, when I look at your list, outside the obvious 4e setting tie ins, there is literally nothing but 'I wanted horns' that screams Tiefling.

So, here's the problem. I'm going to take dwarves for a second.

Short -> Not race specific
Lives underground -> Not race specific
Clan society -> Not race specific
Warrior Society -> Not race specific
Big Beards -> Not race specific
Fine crafters of quality goods -> Not race specific
Lovers of strong drink -> Not race specific
Wanting to restore a lost heritage to prominence -> Not race specific
Bitter Racial divide with evil counterparts -> Not race specific
Honorable -> Not race specific
Gruff and surly -> Not race specific
Uses Axes and Hammer -> Not race specific
Tough and stoic -> Not race specific


I think that covers just about every single Dwarven trope I can think of off the top of my head. Nothing about dwarves is unique either. Going down this path inevitably leads us to claiming that everything is just a human with exaggerated features or aspects.

But, I think we know that while that is technically true, as in "Man is the Measure of All Things" since it covers all races equally, it just leaves us back at the starting point. Every race is this way, so why are Tieflings "abnormal" and Dwarves are okay to play? Because of the artwork? That seems like a fairly petty reason to ban something.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is it, right here.

What is a Tiefling?

Unless you are playing strictly FR, and your campaign points to the 4e canon regarding Tieflings, then outside the visual distinction, there is nothing to it beyond 'Human with Infernal Heritage' which can mean anything, and used to mean you had some kind of attribute, that could mark you as 'other'.

That alone is not enough to make you a 'weird' race. It simply isnt. Unless you have a big ol' rack of horns sticking out your forehead.

Okay, I'm not sure if you are advocating for them to be brought further into the fold and "normalized" or "kicked out"

I mean, if your argument is "they are basically just humans" then why ban them at all? They are basically just humans, and you have humans in your setting.

 

[Scribe]

Every race is this way, so why are Tieflings "abnormal" and Dwarves are okay to play? Because of the artwork? That seems like a fairly petty reason to ban something.

Because 4e decided Tieflings all had to look like they crawled out of Hell?

 

[Scribe]

Okay, I'm not sure if you are advocating for them to be brought further into the fold and "normalized" or "kicked out"

I mean, if your argument is "they are basically just humans" then why ban them at all? They are basically just humans, and you have humans in your setting.

I dont think they should be banned. I think they should be normalized, by reverting the mistake that is the 4e 'design change' they applied to Tiefling.