What is the point of GM's notes?

[Manbearcat]

Your post frames it as a partisan issue (you grouped us together as people who come in and attack the discussion)

I grouped you with a few other people who typically express some formulation of the below refrain:

"this stuff is extremely niche...you are an extreme minority within a minority...the overwhelming majority of the hobby isn't impacted and doesn't care."

You do that. It is a fact. Its not "grouping you together." Its describing a particular refrain and those who express it. There is nothing partisan about that and there is nothing personal in saying that a few people say this thing.

It would be like if you went in the opposite direction and said "Manbearcat commonly says digging into TTRPG theory and performing hardcore post-mortems on play excerpts is very helpful for TTRPG players to improve their craft...and so does x, y, and z."

Why in the world would I perceive that as a partisan attack or perceive that as you getting personal? Its a fact about me. Its undeniably true.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I grouped you with a few other people who typically express some formulation of the below refrain:

"this stuff is extremely niche...you are an extreme minority within a minority...the overwhelming majority of the hobby isn't impacted and doesn't care."

You do that. It is a fact. Its not "grouping you together." Its describing a particular refrain and those who express it. There is nothing partisan about that and there is nothing personal in saying that a few people say this thing.

It would be like if you went in the opposite direction and said "Manbearcat commonly says digging into TTRPG theory and performing hardcore post-mortems on play excerpts is very helpful for TTRPG players to improve their craft...and so does x, y, and z."

Why in the world would I perceive that as a partisan attack or perceive that as you getting personal? Its a fact about me. Its undeniably true.

I don't disagree but then why is it partisan to talk about sides, when there are clearly sides in the discussion. I was just responding here to you saying I was being partisan. I get not everyone fits neatly into those sides, but there are two groups of posters with opposing views; no? It just makes the conversation easier to speak about it in terms of sides

 

[Manbearcat]

I can definitely say I find much of this discussion pompous. But I don't find analysis on its own pompous. And someone being pompous is still not enough to make me dislike them or want to be adversarial. I have enjoyed a lot of our exchanges for example (when I haven't felt like I was being belittled). But I think the way in which the analysis is done and the certainty around it is one of the things that makes it feel pompous to me here.

But I was pretty clear about this I feel earlier in the thread that one of the things I don't like is the intellectual bullying I see. I get a bit snappy when I see that, or when I feel like someone is saying I am an idiot (and I definitely feel I have seen this and been on the receiving end of the latter). But I also am not here to get angry or make enemies. I am always happy to move on and answer questions that feel sincere, and are not insulting. And I am always happy to hit the reset button.

This is all I was looking for. There was no trap. No gotcha. We didn't need to have any alternative discussion.

"The discussion and the participants are pompous and they engage in intellectual bullying. This kind of behavior needs to be challenged."

That was my hypothesis on what happens here and what happens elsewhere.

So now that we have confirmed that is true. What is the payoff you're looking for? What is the behavioral or cultural adjustment you're hoping takes place after the challenge has been performed?

 

[Imaro]

Before I go further with talking to you about this, I want to make sure that we're both on the same page with what you're saying here with the deployment of "pontification" for "self-gratification."

I don't know if you think this word is benign, but its not (pompous and dogmatic). If you aren't aware that you're telling me I'm pompous and dogmatic and you meant another word...totally cool, just let me know and I accept that.

If you do mean it, then this is actually accidentally revelatory because it is precisely what I was looking for. My sense is that there is a very high likelihood that people on hobby sites perceive the kind of thing I'm talking about as pompous. And there is a not-insignificant subset of people who go on attack when they perceive pompous.

So was this an accident (wrong word usage)? Or are you purposefully or accidentally telling me what you think (of me and of this conversation and these conversations) and what is animating you (yet the payoff is still to be determined...typically when someone attacks someone they perceive as pompous or dogmatic, they want that person to be publicly "cut down to size" and issue some kind of mea culpa...unclear if that is the theoretical payoff here).

---

So I'll answer your question above, but I need to know if you're revealing exactly what I hypothesized about what is going on here (the perception of a bunch of pompous asses navel-gazing their way to self-gratification).

If that is what you think...that is cool. I just want to hear you confirm my suspicions by cementing what you've written above.

I'll still answer the rest of your post, but understand that if I had to hypothesize what drives the kind of behavior I was talking about above, it would have 100 % have been what you wrote above -

"...because pompous, dogmatic asses, who is navel-gazing their way to self-gratification on a public forum need to be challenged and put in their place."

And understand that this reality puts us in the most hostile, most adversarial relationship possible on a message board.

I find a large part of this conversation comes off as pompous. I don't know you personally so I can't comment on you as a person or your motivations, I can only speak to how the tone of many of the posts in the thread come off to me.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It’s just silly. It’s like saying if I want to work out and get in shape I’m going to become some muscle head with no etiquette, dropping dumbbells and grunting loud enough to get the entire gym’s attention.

I work out a lot and go to the gym. It can be very easy to become a muscle head without meaning to. It can also be easy to lose sight of the fact that not everyone engages fitness in the same way, and that can cause friction. I am not saying an interest in taking RPGs seriously automatically translates into table issues. But my post was in response to the intensity of the original post, which to me seemed to be going in that direction.

 

[Manbearcat]

I don't disagree but then why is it partisan to talk about sides, when there are clearly sides in the discussion. I was just responding here to you saying I was being partisan. I get not everyone fits neatly into those sides, but there are two groups of posters with opposing views; no? It just makes the conversation easier to speak about it in terms of sides

Its partisan because its not true. It isn't a true statement that I'm not "team D&D" or "team D&D sandbox" or whatever. And the same thing for several other posters. But its clear that your orientation toward me (and others) is that me being "team D&D" is not true (its clear you perceive me...and have as long as I can recall...as some kind of adversary...so you come into this through a partisan lens).

If ENWorld wasn't culturally the way it is (let us say it was exclusively a bunch of indie gamers that don't touch D&D and maybe there is a cultural inertia against D&D), you would see me in the exact opposite direction. I am a HUGE D&D fan. HUGE. If you guys think you're a bigger fan of D&D than me, you're flat wrong. I love it and I have defended it my whole life from the misperceptions and stigmas of our greater society. I still do to this day. But, on ENWorld, D&D is profoundly and consistently anointed. It doesn't remotely need my defense.

 

[Maxperson]

1) people have very different definitions of ‘best’ in RPGs

2) lots of people, probably most, engage in leisure activities to unwind and kick back. If you have a table of four chill people and you are trying to amp up the energy and get them to ‘bring their A game’ you are totally misreading the room (and probably reducing their enjoyment of the past time)

There's a game I play in that's fantastic, but the energy is super high. We had one guy show up for a game and at the end of the night he was like, "That was the best game I've ever played in. ::still shaking from adrenalin::: I'm never coming back." High energy has it's perks, but it's a very different kind of play.

 

[Bedrockgames]

So now that we have confirmed that is true. What is the payoff you're looking for? What is the behavioral or cultural adjustment you're hoping takes place after the challenge has been performed?

That is an oversimplification. I originally weighed in because I felt the OPs framing was a bit of a trap (and I clearly stated that). But then I found myself drawn into a discussion about sandboxes, living worlds etc, which I was genuinely interested in once it got started. But I find when I participate in threads with people like you and Pemerton (and other posters who frequently post in the same threads), I find myself seeing posts that fit the above description and I feel the need to respond. For me there isn't any payoff, I think I am just built to react negatively when I feel like I see that stuff. If there is a payoff, maybe it's a hope that there is a place to bridge the gap, or possibly persuade people. Also, I think one of the reasons I post in reaction to things I disagree with strongly is I feel that its important. A lot of people read these threads but don't post. And even people who post, are often afraid to disagree with something for fear of looking stupid. I think it is useful for people, when there appears to be a consensus around a conclusion in a thread, to be a dissenting voice if you disagree.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Its partisan because its not true. It isn't a true statement that I'm not "team D&D" or "team D&D sandbox" or whatever. And the same thing for several other posters. But its clear that your orientation toward me (and others) is that me being "team D&D" is not true (its clear you perceive me...and have as long as I can recall...as some kind of adversary...so you come into this through a partisan lens).

If ENWorld wasn't culturally the way it is (let us say it was exclusively a bunch of indie gamers that don't touch D&D and maybe there is a cultural inertia against D&D), you would see me in the exact opposite direction. I am a HUGE D&D fan. HUGE. If you guys think you're a bigger fan of D&D than me, you're flat wrong. I love it and I have defended it my whole life from the misperceptions and stigmas of our greater society. I still do to this day. But, on ENWorld, D&D is profoundly and consistently anointed. It doesn't remotely need my defense.

I don't play D&D

 

[Bedrockgames]

Its partisan because its not true. It isn't a true statement that I'm not "team D&D" or "team D&D sandbox" or whatever. And the same thing for several other posters. But its clear that your orientation toward me (and others) is that me being "team D&D" is not true (its clear you perceive me...and have as long as I can recall...as some kind of adversary...so you come into this through a partisan lens).

I wasn't saying you were team anti-D&D. I was seeing you more as team "Y mode of analysis"