What is the point of GM's notes?

[Maxperson]

Using a flashback to acquire a potion of longevity would make sense if the characters knew (or could have reasonably known) there was a monster involved that aged people, somehow. Otherwise not so much. It's really not the retcon tool people seem to be imagining.

The mechanical benefit of drinking a magical potion of longevity aside, do you often have someone randomly flashing back to drink one? What would be the point of such a flashback if not to aid with something that needed it?

 

[Fenris-77]

Well, that's not really a thing in Blades, so no. My point was more about the place of the flashback relative to the established fiction and planning process that Blades elides.

 

[hawkeyefan]

The player may be able to time travel just like you do when reading a novel and encounter a flashback. A character can't do that. When the character charges off without planning, and makes such a decision it's an in game decision. Later the character, can't decide something happened earlier. That would be a player decision.

There is no need for time travel on the part of the character.

Again, look at a simple Knowledge or Lore check. The players in a game are simply not aware of everything their characters may be. We very often don't know until there is something introduced that triggers our need to know.

So....the Sword of Kas is mentioned by an NPC. How do we know if the PC Wizard has heard of this?

Clearly, the chronology of this is different for the player when compared to the character.

A check is made, and it's determined he knows about Kas who betrayed Vecna and all that jazz. Of course the character has known this since he learned it during his apprenticeship, and so he is able to share his knowledge with the other characters (or not, if he's a jerk).

But for the player, that knowledge only came about as a response to something in the game, where a check was made, and then an advantage was gained that reframed the current scene.

This is very similar to how a Flashback works in Blades, except it is more limited in application (usually an associated skill or ability must be possessed by the character).

I think the disconnect between player knowledge over time and character knowledge over time. It matches in my games and does not in yours. Again if it is relevant in any way to in game success.

It never really matches in any game. You're just so comfortable with the instances that do come up in your game, that you're classifying them differently.

The character had some dreams during sleep, and then it might have tried your coffee, and then this conversation with your character takes place. If desired, these events could have been roleplayed out in sequence. It's the same as your character and mine telling war stories about our past (roleplayed) adventures together.

If desired or not, the fact is that we are establishing details and facts about the world retroactively very frequently in more traditional minded games. It's just mechanized in specific ways like Knowledge skills, Bardic Lore, or Divination and similar abilities. There needs to be some kind of "approval stamp" that says "this is okay in this case and it's not dirty cheating cuz magic".

Blades and games with similar elements simply remove the need for approval stamps, and instead make the ability available to anyone, provided they can come up with something that suits, spend the appropriate amount of Stress, and make the associated Action Roll (if applicable).

Also, note there's no mechanical advantage to be gained anywhere here; in sharp contrast with a situation where you can determine in the moment what equipment you earlier-in-time decided to bring along based on the problems you're facing now. Worse, you don't get the opportunity to roleplay those equipment-load decisions ahead of time and thus maybe get it wrong.

What about a Knowledge or Lore check to help determine the nature of the legendary creature said to be inhabiting the dungeon that's about to be entered? A successful check means that the Bard knows the legend of this creature, and that he was called the Ghost King by some......so maybe some Restoration spells and Longevity Potions are in order.

Mechanical advantage gained (prepare for an encounter with a ghost) by retroactively establishing a past event (learning the lore).

Both in the fiction and at the table, time only moves in one direction.

This is very clearly not true.

 

[Lanefan]

Using a flashback to acquire a potion of longevity would make sense if the characters knew (or could have reasonably known) there was a monster involved that aged people, somehow. Otherwise not so much. It's really not the retcon tool people seem to be imagining.

It's a retcon, pure and simple.

If they knew of - or could reasonably foresee - an aging threat ahead of time then they also could have got the potion at that time, roleplayed long before they get to the encounter area; and if they didn't get the potion then it's too bad for them now. Never mind that doing it the retcon way very conveniently removes any chance of their not being able to find one.

This is why you play through the planning phases first and do things in time-sequential order, to avoid this kind of BS and the inevitable table arguments it'll provoke. If they want to skip over the planning phases and jump right to the action then fine, they go in with exactly what they have noted on their sheets, nothing more and no retcons.

 

[Lanefan]

There is no need for time travel on the part of the character.

Again, look at a simple Knowledge or Lore check. The players in a game are simply not aware of everything their characters may be. We very often don't know until there is something introduced that triggers our need to know.

So....the Sword of Kas is mentioned by an NPC. How do we know if the PC Wizard has heard of this?

Clearly, the chronology of this is different for the player when compared to the character.

A check is made, and it's determined he knows about Kas who betrayed Vecna and all that jazz. Of course the character has known this since he learned it during his apprenticeship, and so he is able to share his knowledge with the other characters (or not, if he's a jerk).

And here you hit the most important point: the info in question was learned prior to the character's roleplayed career. The player had no way of knowing about this up until now.

If however it was learned during the character's roleplayed career as part of play then it's on the player to either remember it or look it up in the game log, failure meaning the character has forgotten what it was told.

What about a Knowledge or Lore check to help determine the nature of the legendary creature said to be inhabiting the dungeon that's about to be entered? A successful check means that the Bard knows the legend of this creature, and that he was called the Ghost King by some......so maybe some Restoration spells and Longevity Potions are in order.

Mechanical advantage gained (prepare for an encounter with a ghost) by retroactively establishing a past event (learning the lore).

If all this is done (and played through!) ahead of time and the resulting countermeasures are taken ahead of time, then fine. What I object to is, in the both at-table and in-play moment of encountering a foe with specific abilities/weaknesses, the sudden unexplained appearance in your backpack of just the thing you need because you were able to retcon it in.

 

[Fenris-77]

It's a retcon, pure and simple.

If they knew of - or could reasonably foresee - an aging threat ahead of time then they also could have got the potion at that time, roleplayed long before they get to the encounter area; and if they didn't get the potion then it's too bad for them now. Never mind that doing it the retcon way very conveniently removes any chance of their not being able to find one.

This is why you play through the planning phases first and do things in time-sequential order, to avoid this kind of BS and the inevitable table arguments it'll provoke. If they want to skip over the planning phases and jump right to the action then fine, they go in with exactly what they have noted on their sheets, nothing more and no retcons.

Yeah, no, it isn't. Your personal biases are showing a little here.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, no, it isn't. Your personal biases are showing a little here.

When on meeting a given situation you can in effect go back in time and materially change things to your benefit in that situation, how in any way is that not a retcon?

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Just so that everybody is on the same page WRT flashbacks in Blades:

EDIT: also Act Now, Plan Later:

 

[hawkeyefan]

It's a retcon, pure and simple.

If they knew of - or could reasonably foresee - an aging threat ahead of time then they also could have got the potion at that time, roleplayed long before they get to the encounter area; and if they didn't get the potion then it's too bad for them now. Never mind that doing it the retcon way very conveniently removes any chance of their not being able to find one.

This is why you play through the planning phases first and do things in time-sequential order, to avoid this kind of BS and the inevitable table arguments it'll provoke. If they want to skip over the planning phases and jump right to the action then fine, they go in with exactly what they have noted on their sheets, nothing more and no retcons.

Blades in the Dark encourages you to skip the planning. So your insistence is clearly specific to your game and is only a matter of preference. It doesn't cause any table arguments, nor does continuity come crashing down around the characters. I think that's all that we can really say about it. There is no objectively correct way to handle this.

A lore check is just as much of a retcon.

The reason Blades encourages skipping the planning is that a lot of planning is often boring (not all of it, and not always, but we've all been at a table where two players are debating some opposing courses of action, and a third is sitting there, chin in hand, just waiting to actually play) and a significant portion of time is wasted on plans that don't come into play.

Is some planning fun and meaningful play? Sure. Is it possible you may skip past something that would have been entertaining to actually play out? Yes....but this is why the game does not require you to skip. The expectation is that you have at least a basic plan in place, but there's nothing to actually stop you from providing a fuller plan. And also, this is part of what makes Flashbacks fun.....they allow you to only play out the fun and meaningful plans.

And here you hit the most important point: the info in question was learned prior to the character's roleplayed career. The player had no way of knowing about this up until now.

If however it was learned during the character's roleplayed career as part of play then it's on the player to either remember it or look it up in the game log, failure meaning the character has forgotten what it was told.

Do you assume that everything an 18th level wizard may know was learned before level 1? Seems absurd.

If all this is done (and played through!) ahead of time and the resulting countermeasures are taken ahead of time, then fine. What I object to is, in the both at-table and in-play moment of encountering a foe with specific abilities/weaknesses, the sudden unexplained appearance in your backpack of just the thing you need because you were able to retcon it in.

Yes, we get that's your preference and why. All I'm saying is that this kind of stuff is already present in pretty much every D&D game, you're just so used to it when it does happen in the classic ways that it's not disruptive to you.

 

[hawkeyefan]

When on meeting a given situation you can in effect go back in time and materially change things to your benefit in that situation, how in any way is that not a retcon?

You're not going back in time, and nothing established has been changed. All you're doing is establishing something previously unestablished.

Establishing things previously unestablished is a huge part of RPGs.