What is the standard ability score set? Are most games playing too high?

[Crothian]

edited to be kinder

I understand what you're saying. But you flip-flop between making it sound like a difference of type, and a difference of degree.

Not flip flopping. It can be one or the other or both. They are not mutually exclusive.

You are not really any different from the people saying that stats matter.

Except for that part where they feel that stats make on heroic and I don't. I say the actions define heroic. A character with all 18's that does not is not heroic. A character with all 3's though that tries to save lies has a chance to be successful and a heroic. And that small chance is still greater then the all 18 guy that does nothing.

I just feel that a characters action define a heroic character more then a character's stats.

 

[Piratecat]

You are not really any different from the people saying that stats matter.

One of the big warning signs of a problematic discussion is when people start telling other people what they are and aren't.

Feel free to discuss how Crothian handles things in his game. But please don't attack him in the process. Implying that someone's a hypocrite isn't a great way to hold a conversation.

On that same note, Crothian, please try not to get defensive as people explore your opinions.

Many thanks.

 

[Crothian]

Sorry PC. I edited my last post a bit to be less confrontational.

 

[Elemental]

You know, on the WotC boards, they have the Stormwind Fallacy. This states, paraphrasing, that the power level of a character is completely unrelated to how well they are played. Powerful characters can still have memorable and unique stories, and weak characters can be dull as ditchwater, not automatically becoming more interesting through being weaker. Might be a good thing to import.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I say the actions define heroic.

What sort of actions? Benevolent? Self-sacrificing? Successful?

 

[Crothian]

What sort of actions? Benevolent? Self-sacrificing? Successful?

Whatever it is that ones sees as heroic. If you really want to know what that is for people I suggest starting a new thread as this one has probably seen enough tangents.

 

[Vocenoctum]

In one of our longterm campaigns I played with a guy who rolled 4 eighteens. Nevermind the fact that I find that players often, oddly, seem to roll lower when it's done in front of the DM. But let's take him at his word, and say it was honest 4d6 drop the lowest. His character was EASILY a +1 level adjustment above the rest of us. And he played a cleric, which meant that he was a better fighter than the fighter, especially spelled up, and everything he did - turn undead, saves, skills, combat, anything that involved a roll and involved his stats - he did better than everyone else.

I rolled my stats in front of the DM. I had a 12, and a 7 among my numbers. And yes, it most certainly made a difference.

I play online, and we've always rolled as a group, back when we used to roll. I had a pair of characters, at different times that were significantly above average. One was a wizard, and the differences weren't as obviously noticeable. (Sure, he had more HP than almost anyone else, but he didn't melee anyway since he had a real bad strength.) The other a paladin, and it was very noticeable.

But really, the problem is obvious when you're rolling as a group and limited to say, 4 rerolls, or the default minimums. If a player hits a bunch of 18's, and the next guy hits the minimums, it's not really balanced against each other.


OTOH, for those that roll. What about having say, 20 pre-constructed sets, then having the players roll 1d20 and take that array of stats. You can then insure that randomness and balance are at least present in some way.

 

[molonel]

Not flip flopping. It can be one or the other or both. They are not mutually exclusive.

Except that when you say that there is a breakoff point where you can no longer accomplish heroic action, and the factor preventing you is the numbers - and you HAVE admitted that in this conversation - you acknowledge that you are simply placing the markers in a different area from those you disagree with.

It is simply a matter of degree. Not of kind.

Except for that part where they feel that stats make on heroic and I don't. I say the actions define heroic. A character with all 18's that does not is not heroic. A character with all 3's though that tries to save lies has a chance to be successful and a heroic. And that small chance is still greater then the all 18 guy that does nothing.

Again, you're trying to draw a distinction that isn't there. They believe stats make one heroic because they allow you to accomplish heroic action. They are saying "TomAYto" and you're saying "TomAHto."

The only difference is pronunciation.

I just feel that a characters action define a heroic character more then a character's stats.

And when you are inhibited in your actions by lack of ability, you are reduced in heroic stature.

That is the flipside of things seeming MORE heroic when you are less worthy, and successful.

But in a randomized system, numbers count.

 

[Crothian]

Except that when you say that there is a breakoff point where you can no longer accomplish heroic action, and the factor preventing you is the numbers - and you HAVE admitted that in this conversation - you acknowledge that you are simply placing the markers in a different area from those you disagree with.

It is simply a matter of degree. Not of kind.

By kind I mean play style and campaign style. A DM can have simpler encounters knowing the PCs have lower stats. The DM can make sure that he's not asking the PC to do something that is impossible for them because of their stats.

Again, you're trying to draw a distinction that isn't there. They believe stats make one heroic because they allow you to accomplish heroic action.

Just because you might not see the distinction doesn't mean it is not there. Higher stats don't allow you to accomplish heroic actions. It's not like a DC 15 is a normal check and a DC 20 is all of a sudden heroic. Higher stats do increase the chances that some types of actions will be more successful.

And when you are inhibited in your actions by lack of ability, you are reduced in heroic stature.

There is were the good playing and planning comes in. The player finds a way to do something else and be heroic that the character can do. Not every character needs to be herioc in the same ways.

 

[molonel]

By kind I mean play style and campaign style. A DM can have simpler encounters knowing the PCs have lower stats. The DM can make sure that he's not asking the PC to do something that is impossible for them because of their stats. Just because you might not see the distinction doesn't mean it is not there. Higher stats don't allow you to accomplish heroic actions. It's not like a DC 15 is a normal check and a DC 20 is all of a sudden heroic. Higher stats do increase the chances that some types of actions will be more successful.

No. There are actually limits hardcoded into the game where you cannot accomplish certain actions without certain stats. If you are wielding a light mace, and your strength is 3, your damage is going to be 1d4-4. You cannot kill anything. You can heroically beat monsters about the head and shoulders all day long. It doesn't matter. You can't hurt anything.

If your intelligence or wisdom is 9 or below, you cannot cast arcane or divine spells, respectively:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityModifiers

Higher stats may increase your chances, but stats of least average are required to even try.

Ergo, success is tied in part to your stats in a randomized system of this sort.

You can softpitch your players, and tell them that they are fighting giants when you're using the stats for ogres. But there comes a mathematical breakoff point where good intentions are not enough. Roleplaying skill becomes irrelevant, and math takes over.

There is were the good playing and planning comes in. The player finds a way to do something else and be heroic that the character can do. Not every character needs to be herioc in the same ways.

Good planning and smart playing can help, but unless you are playing a diceless system, they can only do so much. D&D is not such a system.