D&D 5E What Is The Value of Stunning Strike?

[doctorbadwolf]

So, 1 ki is technically worth somewhere between 1/2 a spell slot and 1 spell slot.

We know that because spells in the class cost either 1/level or 1+(1per level), with the difference seemingly being that one subclass has more options of spells than the others.

But Stunning Strike breaks that a bit.

So, what is the value of 2 attacks plus the chance of a stun?

I ask because I think that stunning Strike could be one of several abilities based on how outwardly magical vs “superhero but not magic” you want your monk to be.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Ki is 1 per level, same as Sorcery Points, but come back on a short rest, so could be 1 to 1, 1/2 or 1/3, etc, depending on how many short rests you're having.

You can turn 2 SP into a 1st level slot, so 1 Ki could be worth as little as 1/6 of a 1st level slot, which honestly could be the case depending on what you're trying to stun.

 

[jgsugden]

So, 1 ki is technically worth somewhere between 1/2 a spell slot and 1 spell slot.

We know that because spells in the class cost either 1/level or 1+(1per level), with the difference seemingly being that one subclass has more options of spells than the others.

But Stunning Strike breaks that a bit.

So, what is the value of 2 attacks plus the chance of a stun?

I ask because I think that stunning Strike could be one of several abilities based on how outwardly magical vs “superhero but not magic” you want your monk to be.

Stunning strike is ridiculously powerful. At 5th level a monk can force an enemy to make 4 saves to avoid being stunned. That is like triple disadvantage - if you need all 4 - which you might not. You might get thst stun on the first attempt - but you can have up to three more chances if you need it.

Oh, but the DC will be lower than the wizard, right? For many monks, that DC is only going to be 1 less than a wizard of the same level. So that would be once in 20 times that DC difference makes a difference. But you have to hit and that is far from guaranteed.... except it isn't hard to make sure a monk hits. For example, my 5th level monk was charging into combats with a Bless and advantage from several sources on a regular basis at 5th level.

The utility of it will depend upon the DM to an extent, but a strategic player in a typical game that is not designed to negate the monk can consistently neutralize one (or more) of the most significant threats in a combat.

To that end - I consider the monk's ability to use Stunning Strike to be the equivalent of the benefit of a full spellcaster.

 

[Flamestrike]

If there was a spell that had a zero casting time (allowing it to be spammed), forced a Con save for Stun (almost never resisted condition) it would likely be at least 1st level, and likely higher.

It's a game changer of an ability when it comes online.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Stunning strike is ridiculously powerful. At 5th level a monk can force an enemy to make 4 saves to avoid being stunned. That is like triple disadvantage - if you need all 4 - which you might not. You might get thst stun on the first attempt - but you can have up to three more chances if you need it.

Oh, but the DC will be lower than the wizard, right? For many monks, that DC is only going to be 1 less than a wizard of the same level. So that would be once in 20 times that DC difference makes a difference. But you have to hit and that is far from guaranteed.... except it isn't hard to make sure a monk hits. For example, my 5th level monk was charging into combats with a Bless and advantage from several sources on a regular basis at 5th level.

The utility of it will depend upon the DM to an extent, but a strategic player in a typical game that is not designed to negate the monk can consistently neutralize one (or more) of the most significant threats in a combat.

To that end - I consider the monk's ability to use Stunning Strike to be the equivalent of the benefit of a full spellcaster.

You’re gonna run out of ki fast if you’re using it on every attack and using flurry regularly, but yeah it’s very good while you have ki to spend.

Full casting, though, I think is too much. You have to combine extra attack, martial arts, flurry of blows, and stunning strike, to reach that.

Which…yeah okay.

Perhaps at level 1 you choose between 3 types of “mystic” you are.

Swordmage - You get Int to AC, a mark ability that can be used offensively or protectively, and a small spell list you cast at 1/spell level, at a half caster rate, and ritual casting. Can deflect any spell attack and either boost their AC until start of next turn or add damage of the same type to their next attack.

Monk - as phb, except we replace stunning strike with a restrained effect, and a few other options like a “if the target moves more than 5 ft before the end of your next turn, they take XYZ damage”, and a force damage “melee weapon attack with a range of 30ft”, and an iron fist style “big single strike”, and we beef up deflect arrows to be deflect attacks. Also martial arts attack doesn’t have to be unarmed, but it’s the same damage regardless.

Martial Savant - Strength or Dex based, gets some maneuvers, no stunning strike or other really mystical stuff, but can performs feats of physical prowess. Also gets the same change to martial arts as the monk.

 

[Clint_L]

Stunning Strike is a problem for the monk class because it is so good that it limits what else a monk can be given. And it is the obvious optimal choice way too often, meaning that it reduces player agency.

I was playing my monk last night. I wanted to use SS less but...it was just clearly the best choice all the time. I felt a little embarrassed. I would like to see the updated monk have SS limited in some ways (maybe you can only attempt it once per round) and given options that are competitive with it. Make players have to think about it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Stunning Strike is a problem for the monk class because it is so good that it limits what else a monk can be given. And it is the obvious optimal choice way too often, meaning that it reduces player agency.

I was playing my monk last night. I wanted to use SS less but...it was just clearly the best choice all the time. I felt a little embarrassed. I would like to see the updated monk have SS limited in some ways (maybe you can only attempt it once per round) and given options that are competitive with it. Make players have to think about it.

Yeah that’s kinda the goal of my last post, and this thread in general. To find a different way to achieve that fiction. Nearly every other condition would be easier to balance.

I mean if stunning strike took both attacks of your attack action, or cost a bonus action, it wouldn’t be nearly as bad. If it’s an action it’s basically hold person with damage.

What if you declared that all your attacks this turn are stunning strikes, and you get graduated results based on how many saves the target fails?

So one fail maybe reduces speed to zero and they have trouble speaking. 2 is fully restrained. 3 is stunned.

You could then restrain up to 4 targets, or focus on one.

 

[FrogReaver]

So, 1 ki is technically worth somewhere between 1/2 a spell slot and 1 spell slot.

We know that because spells in the class cost either 1/level or 1+(1per level), with the difference seemingly being that one subclass has more options of spells than the others.

But Stunning Strike breaks that a bit.

So, what is the value of 2 attacks plus the chance of a stun?

I ask because I think that stunning Strike could be one of several abilities based on how outwardly magical vs “superhero but not magic” you want your monk to be.

Per short rest a level 5 monk can use stunning strike 5 times. For ease I'll assume a 60% chance to stun with it. That means the level 5 monk can remove about 3 enemy turns per short rest while getting his full round of attacks every round.

In terms of enemy turn removal that's not impressive. In terms of damage it's quite average.

I'd rate the value of stunning strike around that of a first level spell. I'd rate the value of a full round of attacks at level 5 around a magic missile.

So approximately 2 first level spells.

 

[Blue]

So, 1 ki is technically worth somewhere between 1/2 a spell slot and 1 spell slot.

We know that because spells in the class cost either 1/level or 1+(1per level), with the difference seemingly being that one subclass has more options of spells than the others.

But Stunning Strike breaks that a bit.

So, what is the value of 2 attacks plus the chance of a stun?

I ask because I think that stunning Strike could be one of several abilities based on how outwardly magical vs “superhero but not magic” you want your monk to be.

Stunning Strike is likely the defining aspect of the base monk class. The monk features support a skirmisher style - able to get to vulnerable targets. It's not a full striker/DPR as mechanically supported. When you pick targets, like enemy casters, with low CON, Monks become action denial specialists. While CON is one of the worst saves to go against, between choice of target and the unique ability to force multiple save-or-suck saves per round is quite powerful. That multiple-save-per-round is also great for doing things like draining Legendary saves from a big foe.

So you can't look at the value of a single Stunning Strike, but rather in being able to repeat it in the same round, like casting multiple spells, and how it makes all of the rest of your attacks that round and the next round with advantage. (Which also makes it easier to reapply.)

Each Stunning Strike is less powerful than a multi-target action denial like Fear or Hypnotic pattern, but is more powerful than a 1st level spell like Tasha's that doesn't contain the "keep repeating for each hit" and avoids the "attacks give another save" vulnerability. So I'd place it around a 2nd level spell in value. Which makes it quite worthwhile compared to other Ki costs.

(As a side note, the Four Elements monk is generally considered weak, and when you take that out of the equation Ki seems to be more valuable than 1 spell level per Ki.)

 

[Clint_L]

My Way of Mercy monk just hit 6th level, and one thing that I've noticed is that I actually have a choice to make now that I have a few other cool things to do with my ki points. Unfortunately, most monk subclasses lack options that compete with SS.

So the answer shouldn't be to limit SS and make monk, already widely considered a weak class, worse. It has to be a multi-part solution: nerf SS and add more good options to the base class.

 

[FrogReaver]

Stunning Strike is likely the defining aspect of the base monk class. The monk features support a skirmisher style - able to get to vulnerable targets. It's not a full striker/DPR as mechanically supported. When you pick targets, like enemy casters, with low CON, Monks become action denial specialists. While CON is one of the worst saves to go against, between choice of target and the unique ability to force multiple save-or-suck saves per round is quite powerful. That multiple-save-per-round is also great for doing things like draining Legendary saves from a big foe.

So you can't look at the value of a single Stunning Strike, but rather in being able to repeat it in the same round, like casting multiple spells, and how it makes all of the rest of your attacks that round and the next round with advantage. (Which also makes it easier to reapply.)

Each Stunning Strike is less powerful than a multi-target action denial like Fear or Hypnotic pattern, but is more powerful than a 1st level spell like Tasha's that doesn't contain the "keep repeating for each hit" and avoids the "attacks give another save" vulnerability. So I'd place it around a 2nd level spell in value. Which makes it quite worthwhile compared to other Ki costs.

(As a side note, the Four Elements monk is generally considered weak, and when you take that out of the equation Ki seems to be more valuable than 1 spell level per Ki.)

Hideous laughter as an example is stronger action denial than stunning strike on a per use basis. So Is command (flee).

Expeditious retreat, another first level spell can mimic most of the monks other uses of ki.

Shield spell is comparable enough to the bonus action dodge use of ki for the monk, except typically better because it’s a reaction.

Monks ki abilities are mostly equivalent or a little worse than first level spells.

 

[p_johnston]

Hideous laughter as an example is stronger action denial than stunning strike on a per use basis. So Is command (flee).

Expeditious retreat, another first level spell can mimic most of the monks other uses of ki.

Shield spell is comparable enough to the bonus action dodge use of ki for the monk, except typically better because it’s a reaction.

Monks ki abilities are mostly equivalent or a little worse than first level spells.

So worth noting that stunning strike is better then hideous laughter if for no other reason then you can't cast hideous laughter 4 times a turn. Stunning strike is a boss killer and legendary resistance eater, but that's about it.

 

[Undrave]

I don’t like Stunning Strike. I think it’s a bad feature and overrated.

I don’t like that it comes in so late despite being a signature ability (the Monk has this problem in general where it just keeps getting random abilities instead of improving what it already has which makes it feels random and disjointed.

And I’ve NEVER had it do anything.

You either face opponents who have great Constitution, monsters with Legendary resistance, or little weenies that you should rather be killing off quickly with your Flurry of Blows instead. At best it burns through a Resistance, at worse it flops and does nothing. There are very few situations that I could see where you CAN actually stun someone were you couldn’t just push yourself and knock them out in one turn instead. Basically, unless you’re using it to burn through legendary resistance it doesn’t actually advance the game state toward victory. In 4e terms, you only really want to use it again Elites, but not Minions, Standard or Solo monsters.

Then there’s the conflict with the other things you need Ki for. You need your Ki to boost your defense if you don’t want your little expedition behind enemy line ending with you getting dogpiled into oblivion, you need your Ki to have actually decent damage AND you often need your Ki to do ANYTHING cool your Subclass grant you. When are you going to cast a Ki Point spells if you spend all your Ki doing four Stunning Strikes in a turn?

The MAD nature of the Monk doesn’t help either.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Stunning Strike is likely the defining aspect of the base monk class. The monk features support a skirmisher style - able to get to vulnerable targets. It's not a full striker/DPR as mechanically supported. When you pick targets, like enemy casters, with low CON, Monks become action denial specialists. While CON is one of the worst saves to go against, between choice of target and the unique ability to force multiple save-or-suck saves per round is quite powerful. That multiple-save-per-round is also great for doing things like draining Legendary saves from a big foe.

So you can't look at the value of a single Stunning Strike, but rather in being able to repeat it in the same round, like casting multiple spells, and how it makes all of the rest of your attacks that round and the next round with advantage. (Which also makes it easier to reapply.)

Each Stunning Strike is less powerful than a multi-target action denial like Fear or Hypnotic pattern, but is more powerful than a 1st level spell like Tasha's that doesn't contain the "keep repeating for each hit" and avoids the "attacks give another save" vulnerability. So I'd place it around a 2nd level spell in value. Which makes it quite worthwhile compared to other Ki costs.

(As a side note, the Four Elements monk is generally considered weak, and when you take that out of the equation Ki seems to be more valuable than 1 spell level per Ki.)

This is exactly why I think the best way forward is to kill SS and replace it with multiple options that aren’t as likely to eat up all your monks ki.

(As a side note, I never use it on my monk, and I never regret it)

My Way of Mercy monk just hit 6th level, and one thing that I've noticed is that I actually have a choice to make now that I have a few other cool things to do with my ki points. Unfortunately, most monk subclasses lack options that compete with SS.

So the answer shouldn't be to limit SS and make monk, already widely considered a weak class, worse. It has to be a multi-part solution: nerf SS and add more good options to the base class.

Sure. That’s the idea.

Hideous laughter as an example is stronger action denial than stunning strike on a per use basis. So Is command (flee).

Expeditious retreat, another first level spell can mimic most of the monks other uses of ki.

Shield spell is comparable enough to the bonus action dodge use of ki for the monk, except typically better because it’s a reaction.

Monks ki abilities are mostly equivalent or a little worse than first level spells.

Only in a “white room”, IMO.

Expeditious retreat and longstrider are kinda similar to step of the wind, except ER is concentration, and Longstrider doesn’t scale up, where SoTW scales for free, and adds in Jump as a bonus.

Step of The Wind does 3 spells, can’t be countered, scales with class levels, all for a bonus action and 1 ki.

Hideous Laughter gives a save opportunity every time the target is hit, is concentration, and is one chance of landing per round. At best it’s as good.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Stunning Strike is a high-value ability, easily one of the best for Monks. However, it is limited by ki use (which often contends with other things) and 1 ki per hit is decently expensive, and the "bigger baddies" usually have decent CON's, so a reasonable chance of saving.

Now, when it really becomes an issue is with multiple monks... We did an "all monk" game, and when you have 3 or more monks all doing stunning strikes, it is likely the target is going to fail against on of them. It can certainly be a very big game changer!

 

[FrogReaver]

Only in a “white room”, IMO.

Expeditious retreat and longstrider are kinda similar to step of the wind, except ER is concentration, and Longstrider doesn’t scale up, where SoTW scales for free, and adds in Jump as a bonus.

More importantly Expeditious retreat can provide up to 10 bonus actions for dash/disengage. Typically it will provide 3-4. Step of the Wind provides 1. It’s a lot better than step of the wind on a per resource basis.

Hideous Laughter gives a save opportunity every time the target is hit, is concentration, and is one chance of landing per round. At best it’s as good.

Hideous Laughter will prevent about 1.3 enemy turns on average. Command flee (no concentration) will often prevent 1.2. Stunning strike will prevent about .6 (higher level its more like .3)

Monk abilities are most comparable to level 1 spells and outside stunning strike are likely weaker than most. There’s some slight situational differences of course.

The saving grace is the monk gets a crap ton of ki and can still attack while using his abilities.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Monk abilities are most comparable to level 1 spells and outside stunning strike are likely weaker than most. There’s some slight situational differences of course.

I don't think you've really demonstrated that, and I'd love you to show your working for the above numerical claims (I'm not saying you're lying but I am curious as to what the basis is). Also, as people keep pointing out, you're not limited to 1/turn with Stunning Strike. That's not a slight situational difference, that's a huge functional difference.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't think you've really demonstrated that, and I'd love you to show your working for the above numerical claims (I'm not saying you're lying but I am curious as to what the basis is). Also, as people keep pointing out, you're not limited to 1/turn with Stunning Strike. That's not a slight situational difference, that's a huge functional difference.

The OP spent a lot of time talking about the value of 1 KI and asked what is the value of 2 attacks and a chance of stun. Seems reasonable to take that as asking what is the value of 2 attacks and 1 ki spent to stunning strike. That is certainly the question I’ve been answering.

There’s also a reason I keep saying ‘on a per resource basis’

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The OP spent a lot of time talking about the value of 1 KI and asked what is the value of 2 attacks and a chance of stun. Seems reasonable to take that as asking what is the value of 2 attacks and 1 ki spent to stunning strike. That is certainly the question I’ve been answering.

There’s also a reason I keep saying ‘on a per resource basis’

Ok, it just seems like a really weird and lopsided comparison when you express it in the numerical way you did without accounting for how it actually functions.

There's a big chance with any of those spells that they simply don't land, whereas with Stunning Strike, as long as you have Ki and attacks, you can keep trying. It thus tends to be vastly more effective at nailing enemies right when they don't want to be nailed, which is why it's so well-regarded.

Stunning Strike also works on a ton of things that Tasha's or Command don't.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok, it just seems like a really weird and lopsided comparison when you express it in the numerical way you did without accounting for how it actually functions.

There's a big chance with any of those spells that they simply don't land, whereas with Stunning Strike, as long as you have Ki and attacks, you can keep trying. It thus tends to be vastly more effective at nailing enemies right when they don't want to be nailed, which is why it's so well-regarded.

No need to worry about any of that if the primary question asked is about 2 attacks and 1 ki spent on stunning strike

Stunning Strike also works on a ton of things that Tasha's or Command don't.

Sure. Just Another fact that sounds important but doesn’t really change anything. You use abilities when they are effective. You aren’t spending a slot on command or Tasha’s if the enemy can’t be effected. Same on stunnning strike if the enemy cannot be stunned.