What is this I am hearing about PHB2/DMG2/MM2 being required?

[Fallen Seraph]

I imagine any errata, be if there was a HUGE glaring mistake in one rule, that needed a complete rehash. Which they would of course put on the site, but if you wanted in a book be in the next PHB/DMG.

Though I think an errata that big would be something that wasn't even checked over for editing by the author, if you get what I mean.

 

[Celebrim]

I don't think that you could say that they are 'required'.

However, the choices WotC has made regarding how the intellectual property of the game will be distributed leds me to expect that few groups will want to be without at least the second run of manuals. For example, it would appear that many 'core' monsters will not appear in MM1 and have been reserved for MM2. Classes like Druid, Barbarian and Bard and races like gnome and half-orc which have previously been 'core' are likely to appear in PH2.

So while they aren't required, they could be nearly essential if you don't want to stat out fire giants and barbarians on your own.

 

[Cadfan]

In 3e, material in an expansion book was almost always restricted to just that book. So, lets say in the 3e Complete Pancake they create the Arcane Griddler class. There might be some Arcane Griddler specific feats in the Complete Pancake, and you might get an Arcane Griddler article in Dragon Magazine, but for the most part after the publication of Complete Pancake you'd never see another bit of material for the Arcane Griddler again.* The assumption was that most people didn't have the Complete Pancake, so material for the Arcane Griddler would be useless to them, and material that incorporated the Arcane Griddler would be difficult to use.

In 4e, this will not be the case.

Benefits of the 4e system: It sucked never getting support for your character class after the book in which your class was printed.

Disadvantages: If you don't use splatbook X, then material in splatbook Y which references splatbook X is less valuable to you.

*Ok, technically, they loosened this rule near the end of 3e's run. So its not a 100% rule across the whole edition. But it was the basic philosophy.

 

[Glyfair]

That is more or less how I had understood it, but then some folks started going on about how they will be "required", seeing them as basically errata incorporating reprints of the same information with a bit of new added in, and will be the basis in organized play (such as cons and such), making them "required".

It's mostly because of the very fuzzy meaning of "core books" that has become more fuzzy with the announcement of 4E. To some "core books" means only the PHB, DMG & MM. However, WotC has been using core books to mean non-campaign specific books for years (look at their product page and choose "core books" to see what comes up).

When they stated at GenCon that there would be a PHB II, DMG II and MM II one year after the release of 4E (and a new one every year after that) and they would be "core", most people were thinking the restrictive definition of "core" while WotC meant a different definition.

WotC has said that the 4E PHB II will be closest to the 3.5 PHB II in concept.

 

[Mistwell]

To complete the title question:

What is this I am hearing about PHB2/DMG2/MM2 being additions to Core rules and being required? Am I getting bad info?

Yes, you are getting bad info. They are not required.

 

[Mistwell]

In 3e, material in an expansion book was almost always restricted to just that book.

Complete books added swift actions, and the rule regarding prestige classes not counting for the XP penalty.

Magic item compendium added new magic item creation rules.

Rules Compendium changed or clarified a number of "Core" rules.

I know there are other examples, but I think you get my point. They were not almost always restricted to that book. A pretty decent number had important Core applications.

So, lets say in the 3e Complete Pancake they create the Arcane Griddler class. There might be some Arcane Griddler specific feats in the Complete Pancake, and you might get an Arcane Griddler article in Dragon Magazine, but for the most part after the publication of Complete Pancake you'd never see another bit of material for the Arcane Griddler again.* The assumption was that most people didn't have the Complete Pancake, so material for the Arcane Griddler would be useless to them, and material that incorporated the Arcane Griddler would be difficult to use.

Psionics, which was earlier, and which was found in expansion books, was also found in TONS of other books cross-linked.

In 4e, this will not be the case.

Benefits of the 4e system: It sucked never getting support for your character class after the book in which your class was printed.

Disadvantages: If you don't use splatbook X, then material in splatbook Y which references splatbook X is less valuable to you.

*Ok, technically, they loosened this rule near the end of 3e's run. So its not a 100% rule across the whole edition. But it was the basic philosophy.

I think the cross-linking will be more formally done in 4e, and intentional, but I am not sure it will be actually happening all that much more than in 3e. In 3e, it just felt unplanned and a bit chaotic, but it was done fairly often anyway.

 

[Dinkeldog]

1. You can run a 4E campaign with only the first 3 books: PHB/MM/DMG.

2. The 4E PHB2/MM2/DMG2 will contain some material that in 3E was in the PHB/MM/DMB. Most notably, druids, barbarians and metallic dragons are likely to be in the 4E PHB2/MM2.

3. The PHB2/MM2/DMG2 will be considered as "core" by WotC; what this most likely implies is that the material there will see use in published modules, RPGA campaigns, etc. This has its good and bad points.

Some of the material in the second round of books are likely to be useful when the Eberron campaign is released next year. Especially if Psionics is in there.

 

[Glyfair]

I think the cross-linking will be more formally done in 4e, and intentional, but I am not sure it will be actually happening all that much more than in 3e. In 3e, it just felt unplanned and a bit chaotic, but it was done fairly often anyway.

I didn't find it so, until the end of the 3.5 cycle. Psionics was always sort of an "optional core" and would often appear in small doses in various books. Campaign settings core book were "core" for their setting. Other than that, you didn't see references between books (except swift and immediate actions which had their rules reprinted in every book).

Towards the end of 3.5 you started to see more and more of it. There was the Player's Guide to Eberron which had a theme of showing you how to fit most things from expansions in Eberron (at least the races and classes). Then you had the "Complete <Sequel>" series, which freely referenced the original book (with a large part of the Complete Mage requiring the Complete Arcane). At that point WotC pretty much gave up the concept of not referring to other books. I know Eberron was particularly aggressive in referring to the various classes and races in the books.

In 4E I have a feeling that the PHB/MM/DMG series will be the books referenced in other books, and everything else will mostly be contained within that book, with the D&D Insider used for expanding the roles of popular things.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

That is more or less how I had understood it, but then some folks started going on about how they will be "required", seeing them as basically errata incorporating reprints of the same information with a bit of new added in, and will be the basis in organized play (such as cons and such), making them "required".

So long as you keep the scare quotes around "required," your statements are correct. Also, when you talk about this subject, you should make finger quotes when you say the word "required."

 

[The_Fan]

Perhaps we need to establish a tiered-core system:

A-core is of course the PHB1, MM1, DMG1.

B-core is for future PHBs, MMs, and DMGs.

C-core is for DDI-released info, like the bard.

D-core is for supplimental generic setting products (Martial Power, Draconomicon I, etc)

F-core is for stuff released in setting specific books that is really more generic, like drow racial feats or the Swordmage.

Swap around C and D as you like.