What is *worldbuilding* for?

But again, this is only allowing to pick between a menu of options the GM makes available.

Again, it's not. You aren't correct now, you weren't correct the last time you said this, you won't be correct next time you say it. Repeating a wrong thing over and over doesn't make it true.

I as the player get to decide if I want to see the king. I as the player get to decide if I want to pledge loyalty. If I pursue those things(without a formal agenda), the DM is forced to react to my agency and provide me with choices that take that into account. I may not succeed, but I can force the DM to go that direction. He doesn't force me. Nor am I picking his options.

If the player chooses some OTHER course, then it will fail (presumably due to as-yet unrevealed backstory which makes the action impossible).

Why would you presume something like that? Especially since you said that they were picking another course.

As my earlier response to you (after you posted this) makes clear, the chances that the GM will 'get it right' in respect to a SPECIFIC agenda of a player is highly limited.

There is no "get it right". Either it happens or it doesn't. Either the character goes through that growth arc, or it goes through a different one. I'm saying, and this is factually true, that the sequence of events can happen with my style with no formal agenda or railroading.

Now, if the GM is willing to alter his backstory or generate it as essentially Story Now framing (IE to answer player agenda) then it might work.

What backstory? There's no backstory that says that Denethor won't accept that sort of thing. You and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] don't get our style of play. It's clear from your responses in this thread that you don't really understand it, and comments like those are the evidence of that. The DM is forced through the social contract to consider these sorts of events and respond to them.

But this isn't 'proving me false', it is VINDICATING my point! To the extent that you abandon the classic approach and adopt Story Now techniques, and are willing to allow the player's statements of agenda to reshape any accidentally impeding backstory, you can start to achieve the kind of results I would get. ;)

You're inventing the existence that backstory that impedes, though. It doesn't exist to the extent that you seem to think it exists. The backstory is that Gondor exists with its history. The Steward exists with his story and personality, and so on. You don't write in things like, "The Steward will not accept pledges of fealty from Hobbits." You set up small portions of the world(since nobody can write up more than a small portion), and then the PCs play the game within that loose framework, with the ability to alter things through their actions and desires. That's classic play.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Thank you for proving my point!

Yes, SOMETHING happens in these games. If it is 'character growth' that is entirely a random result!

Not relevant, though. And not true. It's not random, but neither is it pre-selected. It can still easily play out like it did in the books with my playstyle. No formal agenda or railroading is required to have the same result Pippin got.

Let's say the player of Pippin was in my game and wanted to meet the Steward. I would consider that Gandalf is with him and has tremendous influence and fame, as well as thinks highly of Hobbits. That makes it highly likely that it will happen. I might, depending on prior circumstances just allow it to happen with no roll. I might give it a very low DC, perhaps only failing on a 1. While there is some randomization involved, if the result is in doubt, the character still grows through those choices, not necessarily the results. And since even in Story Now there are rolls, the same argument applies to your style as well. Even with a formal agenda, it's still "random"(in quotes, because as I said above, I don't think it really is random) whether or not that growth will happen like it did in the books, or whether failure will happen.
 

It was built by Elendil and other exiles, presumably, near the end of the Second Age. In LotR it is depicted, virtually unchanged, 3 THOUSAND years later, albeit for the last few 100 years a 'new dynasty' (the Stewards) has replaced the line of Elendil. Its the sheer static nature of things in ME, that in 3000 years of the Third Age Gondor hasn't built even one new city, has been ruled by basically one family, hasn't advanced technologically, socially, or in any other way that we can discern.

That's not true. Isildur built a city during the third age, and things were far from static. Actually, all or almost all were built in the third age, since the third age began shortly after the sinking of Numenor.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gondor

The history depicted in the Appendices outlines a fair number of events which have happened in Gondor and Western ME in 3000 years, but none of them seem to have had much impact on how people live, what they believe, etc.

That's hardly the entirety of the history of Gondor. There are many other official sources.

Now project this onto the real world, 3000 years ago in world history the Middle East was dominated by primitive hydraulic empires, Greece was a land of primitive Palace States, the rest of Europe was still in the stone or at best bronze age, iron had only recently been invented by the Hittites, and Egypt was still a world power. Rome didn't exist at all, nor even Athens. China was still a land of barely semi-historical kingdoms, mostly we really have no idea what was there. India was in the midst of some sort of large-scale de-urbanization which nobody can even figure out (we can't even read the script used in this time period, and probably never will).

We can barely IMAGINE what the world of 3000 years ago was like. A Gondorian of year 100 of the Third Age would be perfectly at home in year 3000 Gondor! Heck, he could probably find his way around the streets of Minas Tirith (although he would call it Minas Anor).

Gondor's influence waxed and waned as well. It was far from static during those 3000 years.
 

Not relevant, though. And not true. It's not random, but neither is it pre-selected. It can still easily play out like it did in the books with my playstyle. No formal agenda or railroading is required to have the same result Pippin got.

Let's say the player of Pippin was in my game and wanted to meet the Steward. I would consider that Gandalf is with him and has tremendous influence and fame, as well as thinks highly of Hobbits. That makes it highly likely that it will happen. I might, depending on prior circumstances just allow it to happen with no roll. I might give it a very low DC, perhaps only failing on a 1. While there is some randomization involved, if the result is in doubt, the character still grows through those choices, not necessarily the results. And since even in Story Now there are rolls, the same argument applies to your style as well. Even with a formal agenda, it's still "random"(in quotes, because as I said above, I don't think it really is random) whether or not that growth will happen like it did in the books, or whether failure will happen.

OK, first I wouldn't consider "wants to meet the Steward" to be an agenda or element of characterization that would drive story in Story Now. It might be indicative of a certain type of personality. Imagine for instance in the real-world a guy that wants to meet President Trump. I'd still need to know his reasons to draw any conclusions about him.

Now, when you say its still 'random', I agree that there is an element of chance (at least in the sorts of mechanics we've discussed in this thread). The point is that, even with failures, the player is addressing something dramatic, whatever it is, and its what he decided to address. Truthfully he MIGHT never meet Denethor, but he WILL be placed in a situation which addresses the issue at hand WRT character development. That is Pippin will find himself in some situation which tests his belief. I would say his belief here is likely something to do with his admiration of the Gondorians and a desire to serve/follow them (this seems a consistent motive in both his allegiance to Denethor and to Faramir). His desire to repay a debt to them for the service Boromir rendered may be at the root of it too. In any case there are myriad ways that could play out. I'd note that the GM is framing things, so it IS possible that certain story elements could come to pass regardless of checks.

I would hypothesize that perhaps the whole question of what happened to Faramir is partly a result of Pippin, and maybe also Gandalf and Aragorn, failing some checks at some point. Gandalf in particular could have understood Denethor better and IIRC he even takes some of the blame for the situation himself. Had things gone somewhat differently then the same loyalty/duty question would likely have arisen in a slightly different context. Perhaps a power struggle between Denethor and Aragorn, with the added dimension of Faramir's loyalty (which would be a complex question for him too). One way or another this question WOULD be addressed, and the very nature of Denethor plus Pippin's debt to Boromir's family makes it practically inevitable that it will come to a head.

The point is, it isn't 'random' in Story Now. The EXACT details are contingent on mechanics, but the trajectory is quite easily within reach, and we would consider the GM to have been well-served in his drawing of Denethor's personality, which drives the whole thing (and obviously this was a good piece of work by Tolkien as well to drive his story).
 


Now, see, I argue that 'Simulationism' isn't an agenda. All games are overwhelmingly gamist; they ARE games, and MUST practically bow to practical considerations.
Agreed to a point. One can, however, try to mitigate or lessen the bowing to practical considerations where there is a clear choice, and take the realistic route. A good example is fireball: is it a sphere (as in "ball", as in 1e) or a cubist construct (as 3e has it) or a cube (as 4e has it)? It's a clear choice: the 3e and 4e models are gamist, the 1e model is more realistic - so go with the 1e model.

There's about a gajillion little choice points like this within the game. Some game systems want to make some of these choices for you (e.g. 4e firecubes or C+-H ammo tracking) and there I just push back and say no, wrong choice, worse game.

So any questions of what might be 'realistic' are largely moot. What is being served are 2 things, verisimilitude (which is a pure aesthetic agenda)
Which is far easier to achieve using a more realistic or simulationist foudation than a less-so one.

and the ability of the players to reason about the narrative constraints which the current fictional positioning imposes on them (which is fundamentally a playability consideration, though it may be cast in aesthetic terms as well at times, in which case it is often confused with the previously mentioned verisimilitude).
Yes, these do kinda go hand in hand.

In any case, I could even, ironically, make an argument for the 'realism' of the Cortex+ technique. On the whole players aren't that good at tracking their inventory of equipment.
That's where the DM has to put on the referee's uniform and enforce it.
They are also quite likely to be biased in favor of having things when needed even at the expense of an accurate inventory.
Ditto, as now we're into borderline cheating.

There is also a lot of gray area. Realistically what percentage of arrows would you be able to recover after a fight? How long would it take?
Situationally dependent in all cases. For example, far more likely to recover arrows that missed their mark if the fight's on an open grassy field than if the fight's in a confined area with hard rock walls; though the search of the open grassy field would also take somewhat longer than the search of a small room. That's for the DM to work out...and as there's always going to be a random element anyway, dice are good for this. :)

How many times would they be usable before wearing out?
This I honestly don't know, though if one can sharpen a sword while camping at night one can, I suppose, hone one's blunted arrow tips.

I'm unaware of any RPG which has done the actual research which would be required to establish this (and I don't even think such research is feasible). Thus any values for inventory are effectively arbitrary gamist constructs to begin with. A lantern requires 1 pint of oil every 4 hours because Gary Gygax decided that was the right number to vex his players with a logistical challenge in 1974. I seriously question if this number is based in any sort of reality at all. I mean, it sounds plausible, but 1 hour and 12 hours also sound plausible!
Yep, and a DM can even play with this a bit by having different-capacity lanterns available for sale. (though once a party gets access to Continual Light it's rarely important)

I agree some of the valuations etc. are arbitrary...but the fact that there's valuations at all is already significantly more realistic than a system that has no valuations for minor gear like this.

Given the dubiousness of all these numbers, who says that the procedure of using plot points (probably along with some general consideration of how often the resource has been used) isn't AT LEAST as accurate in actual terms as the fairly arbitrary tracking you're espousing? I mean, I can't even come close to proving it is or it isn't, but neither can you! Thus I would claim that this ENTIRELY an aesthetic 'verisimilitude' type of question. This is also why I discount the very existence of 'simulationism' as a thing in RPGs.
Well, we'll probably continue to disagree on a foundational basis, then; as while I don't see full-on absolute simulationism/realism as even remotely possible I still see it as a worthy goal which one can move toward via what one does with all those great many little choice points I mentioned above.

Lan-"nobody's perfect, but that never stops us from trying"-efan
 

OK, first I wouldn't consider "wants to meet the Steward" to be an agenda or element of characterization that would drive story in Story Now. It might be indicative of a certain type of personality. Imagine for instance in the real-world a guy that wants to meet President Trump. I'd still need to know his reasons to draw any conclusions about him.

I think I understand. In Story Now there would be some sort of goal to become the trusted guard of a king or the like and the play towards becoming a member of the Stewards guard would be guided by that agenda. It still doesn't change what I'm saying, though. You've already stated that the odds of it happening with my playstyle are slim. I tend to disagree with your assessment of those odds, as players like to do cool things like attach themselves to kings, but that also doesn't matter for my point.

You stated that the things Pippin did REQUIRED agendas to be present. They don't and you have now acknowledged that they don't. Whether the odds are 1-2, 1-10, 1-100 or 1-1000000, there still is no requirement for an agenda to be present. It can happen in my playstyle just as I claimed.

I will certainly acknowledge, though, that it would be much easier to achieve if the player has a pre-set agenda and the DM is working to see that it has a chance of happening. :)

Now, when you say its still 'random', I agree that there is an element of chance (at least in the sorts of mechanics we've discussed in this thread). The point is that, even with failures, the player is addressing something dramatic, whatever it is, and its what he decided to address. Truthfully he MIGHT never meet Denethor, but he WILL be placed in a situation which addresses the issue at hand WRT character development. That is Pippin will find himself in some situation which tests his belief. I would say his belief here is likely something to do with his admiration of the Gondorians and a desire to serve/follow them (this seems a consistent motive in both his allegiance to Denethor and to Faramir). His desire to repay a debt to them for the service Boromir rendered may be at the root of it too. In any case there are myriad ways that could play out. I'd note that the GM is framing things, so it IS possible that certain story elements could come to pass regardless of checks.

I agree, which is why I said that with my playstyle the character growth would still happen. All of the same elements are there with the exception of the pre-set agenda. Boromir's sacrifice is very likely to cause my players to feel indebted in the same way, and that will play out in future choices. Character and character growth are very, very important to my players, as well as myself. Some of that will be established when they make their character, though they don't usually tell me about it. Sometimes they do. Often, though, something significant and unplanned will when put together with what they know of their character, cause completely unplanned and sometimes sideways character growth. They head off growing in a completely different direction. It's awesome to see.

I would hypothesize that perhaps the whole question of what happened to Faramir is partly a result of Pippin, and maybe also Gandalf and Aragorn, failing some checks at some point. Gandalf in particular could have understood Denethor better and IIRC he even takes some of the blame for the situation himself. Had things gone somewhat differently then the same loyalty/duty question would likely have arisen in a slightly different context. Perhaps a power struggle between Denethor and Aragorn, with the added dimension of Faramir's loyalty (which would be a complex question for him too). One way or another this question WOULD be addressed, and the very nature of Denethor plus Pippin's debt to Boromir's family makes it practically inevitable that it will come to a head.

I agree, and it's these choices and/or successes and failures, that move the game. Again, these same sorts of things occur in my game, but just aren't done with the same kind of collaboration and pre-planned agendas.

The point is, it isn't 'random' in Story Now. The EXACT details are contingent on mechanics, but the trajectory is quite easily within reach, and we would consider the GM to have been well-served in his drawing of Denethor's personality, which drives the whole thing (and obviously this was a good piece of work by Tolkien as well to drive his story).

Again, it's not random in my game, either. It's just not pre-planned.
 

'classic' D&D (by which I mean essentially TSR D&D) follows an arc of development. The earliest conception of the game is of a vast dungeon, filled with treasure and monsters, which the PCs explore systematically. It may, or may not in some cases, be associated with a 'town' where the PCs can recruit henchmen, heal, buy and sell things, etc.

The next stage of evolution was to include a 'wilderness' which follows a similar formula (entirely generated by the GM and discovered by the players through action resolution, with its characteristics, the facts of the game world, acting as constrains). This wilderness exploration stage starts to break down the paradigm, because the dungeon puts hard constraints on things, you can only travel by the prescribed routes, etc. but the wilderness has far fewer such constraints.
I disagree that it breaks down the paradigm. It just means the DM has to be better at either preparing her world-setting or making it up on the fly (or both at once).

Finally high level play created even greater issues by further breaking down the constraints and thus making it hard for the GM to anticipate the course of action. It also involved things like 'freeholds' and such, which are MUCH more abstract and rely on highly subjective GM judgments.
Having it be hard for the GM to anticipate what happens next is just fine. Again, it simply points to her having to be well-versed in her setting and - as I often put it - ready willing and able to hit the curveballs thrown her way by the players.

As players demanded more dramatic elements in play the game evolved in conception ultimately to 2nd Edition AD&D where the game EXPLICITLY states that the objective is to create interesting stories involving the PC's heroic exploits.
Yeah, 2e swung this pendulum too far the other way; though I'm not entirely sure whether the impetus came from below (player demand) or above (designer preference).

On the contrary, from the publication of the module A1, which was, IMHO, the first 'story based' adventure to be published (someone will probably find antecedents, but it isn't that important)
It was in many ways also the first hard-core railroad series (or proto-AP) to be published, and has been rightly condemned for that over time...though nowhere near as hard-core a railroad as DL, which came a few years later.
the game left the original paradigm behind in the sense that the narrative was now ABOUT the characters and their dramatic needs and evolution. It was CERTAINLY far less constrained than previous play.
No...and no. Sorry. :)

Remember what the A-series was to begin with - a series of tournament modules. Those modules weren't really intended to tell a character-arc story at all, just for one to lead to the next enough that as players advanced to the next level of the tournament they could keep the same characters and with a minimum of exposition pick up the story as they'd already played through it. And if anything the A-series in campaign use is more constraining to play than less, as the players/PCs have to follow the trail...and have no choice whatsoever at the A3-A4 jump.

Dragonlance is the series that started the whole story-first business; and people IME either loved it or despised it. This one was all about character development through a story arc...though unless you inserted your own characters into the books' story somehow you were developing pre-gen characters someone else had designed. But, extremely constraining in play.

So, I would say that A1 marks the 'death of the dungeon maze' as the principle paradigm. I can attest, again by having been there, that this was a conclusion drawn AT THE TIME by both players and reviewers of this module and its successors.
Perhaps, but I don't think it was the death of the dungeon maze. It offered - in a still-dungeon-mazy sort of way - an alternative; which DL fully fleshed out later. Dungeon-based adventures still kept on coming, even into 3e.

A2 in fact is extremely linear in its design - particularly the upper level - when you look at it closely; it's designed to funnel the party into each encounter in a specific order no matter what they do, other than there's one branch they can take that dead-ends. When I ran it I stuck some extra doors and connections in there to make it a bit less predictable for me as DM and provide a few more choice points for the players/PCs.

While I agree that play methods have NOT in a lot of cases evolved too much, I will address how this is in tension with actual play practice below.

Yes, and these factors are in tension with, and undermine, exactly what you contend is 'easy'. In fact it isn't easy at all! 2e D&D is so infamously incoherent in the alignment of its declared narrative agenda and its GM-centered and often procedural mechanics that it hardly even bears comment! The only way to achieve the sort of narrative story arcs imagined is Illusionism and GM force, and the stories themselves must largely stem from the GM's imagination.
Exactly.

If you read 2e's "declared narrative agenda" to mean that it wants to give the DM a better avenue to in effect narrate her story and run the players/PCs through it (in other words, Dragonlance without the intervening novels breaking up the played-at-the-table story), then it suits itself very well. If you want to read more things into the idea of a narrative agenda, such as player control over the fiction or play-to-find-out virtual-world-design sorts of things, then no; you won't find them, because they aren't there.

2e as launched pretty much invites the DM to run a railroad game. Later came the pushback of players seeking more control, leading to the various splatbooks which - while still not getting them off the train - gave them much more by way of mechanical options for their PCs.

That's where 3e with its "Back to the dungeon" mantra really took root: it by extension meant "Get off the train"!

... a negative-image of Story Now.
Would that be Story Some Other Time? :)

Needless to say, I have little use for the maunderings of Mike Mearls. I think his idea of 'pillars of play' is unhelpful at the very least,
Where I think it's a rather brilliant boil-down of what's always been there: that there's other aspects to play than just combat, and here's what they are, explained.

and is at best an analysis of one facet of one specific technique of RPG play, which he seems to imagine is somehow all-encompassing.
The only aspect of play it doesn't encompass well is downtime, which I would add as a fourth pillar. Otherwise, what's it missing?

At the very least he seems to imagine that it is all he need ever address in terms of catering to his specific audience. This is part of the reason I have analyzed 5e as the 'tombstone' of D&D. It envisages no further horizon, and no ambition for any wider play experience, or any desire to explore beyond the boundaries of existing D&D lore, play techniques, rule formulations, etc.
I think you're being a bit pessimistic here. That said, sooner or later you'll inevitably get to ten and where do you go from there? These amps don't go to 11.

So, speaking for myself and not the OP, I don't even consider the whole question of 'pillars' to be interesting. I've reformulated by own flavor of 'D&D' upon an entirely different set of precepts. The idea of pillars and some sort of 'balance between them' is irrelevant within my conception. That doesn't make exploration an impossible agenda, it just puts it at the level of agenda, and not of a 'mechanical space' within the game's rules construct. Put it this way, I would say that if a player chooses to make character build choices and narrative choices which focus on abilities which relate to exploration, then Story Now concerns dictate that the GM in a HoML game would present exploratory challenges.
I don't see the pillars as mechanical constructs so much as I see them as focus points for play at the table.

Look at it this way: what is there that ever happens in play that isn't encompassed by one or more of:

Combat
Downtime
Exploration
Interaction (or Socializing, or whatever term goes towards the talky bits with other PCs and with NPCs)

The story grows out of the sum of what all these activities, repeated as necessary, lead to within the fiction.

But, note the sequence: activities first, story later - the story grows out of the activities; and even if the DM has a pre-authored story in mind these activities might send it in a totally different direction.

What you want to do is have the activities grow out of the story; the players set the story parameters via their beliefs and goals and then the activities become simply means to an end.

I would say that, dramatically, exploration is generally more an element of framing than it is a direct response to character development. In other words a character, dramatically, is unlikely to have an agenda that is purely 'explore for the sake of exploration'. If I was presented with a character which the player had drawn up like this, the first thing I would do is challenge them to explore the MOTIVE for exploration, because exploration is an ACTIVITY, not a belief or end goal.
Combat is an activity. Social interaction with others in the fiction is an activity. Downtime, or what you do during it, is an activity. None of these are beliefs or end goals, and that's the point: they're the things you do en route to achieving (or not) your end goals. Because of this, the game has to provide opportunities - and time! - for all of these to occur.

Lets imagine, a player might respond that he is a worshipper of Ioun, and holds exploration to be an element of devotion to his patron. So now the character's core belief has been refined to a dedication to Ioun, and that probably has some motivational story attached to it. The exploration element isn't being denied, it is described as an interest and avocation of the character. It just isn't what we would generally leverage. A story would take place WHILE exploring. The story might test the character's devotion to Ioun, maybe by making exploration a costly activity in some way (IE loss of lives, wealth expended, necessity to make morally fraught choices, etc.). So I can frame a scene as "while exploring XYZ, your brother-in-law falls in a pit and perishes, what about that?" (I'm extrapolating the outcome of the action here, as well as the initial framing). How does the character break the news to his sister? Does he consider this price to be worth the service to Ioun which it represents? Just how far will he go? Will he sacrifice 10 lives to cross the mountains? 20? 100? How will the folks back home treat that? Will he be able to return and face them?
You could frame that scene, but you'd be doing no justice to the actual activity of exploring...you know, the mappy searchy cautious tense stuff that takes time at the table. Then at some point there might be a pit trap into which the brother-in-law, having failed various game-mechanics to avoid it, falls and dies.

Now the exploration probably turns to a) finding a safe way out with the corpse, and-or then b) finding someone who can revive it. Failing that, the focus turns to the Interaction activity if he goes home and tells them the bad news...which might quickly lead to the Combat activity if they don't take it well! :)

Lanefan
 

That's not true. Isildur built a city during the third age, and things were far from static. Actually, all or almost all were built in the third age, since the third age began shortly after the sinking of Numenor.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gondor



That's hardly the entirety of the history of Gondor. There are many other official sources.



Gondor's influence waxed and waned as well. It was far from static during those 3000 years.

Dude, don't get into an argument with me on ME history etc. I think I read LotR in 1st grade (and probably 10 times since). Isildur was the Son of Elendil, he cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand with the shards of Narsil (the sword Aragorn carries 3000 years later, still broken!). The fall of Sauron was the event from which the Third Age is dated, and Gondor was founded by Elendil, so its date falls within 100 years give or take of the start of the Third Age (I'd have to look to see the EXACT dates, but I'm sure I'm VERY close). Gandalf states "It is a little known fact that Isildur spent some time in Minas Anor before going north to take up the crown of Arnor." This is his explanation for why a description of the ring, in Isildur's hand, was to be found lost in the Minas Tirith archives, 3000 years later.

The sinking of Numenor did preceed the end of the Second Age, yes. Elendil lead the exiles to Middle Earth and founded Gondor and Arnor. Sauron, now in his 'lidless eye' form, quickly mustered war on them.

As I recall, Minas Ithil, later Minas Morgul, was established right after the war to help guard the entrance into Mordor, but it wasn't Isildur who did that AFAIK, it would have been Valendil (Isildur's brother and King of Gondor after his father's death) or one of his successors.

At some point, maybe later I'm not sure, Osgiliath was founded and was the main city of Gondor. Again this must have been SOON after, because the master Palantir was housed there and linked to all the other stones, which were at Minas Anor, Minas Ithil, Orthanc, Weathertop, the Havens of Cirdain, and one other location, which IIRC was in the south. None of the palantiri were ever repositioned thereafter, although I seem to remember that the Orthanc stone was originally somewhere else? I'm not sure.

Anyway, 3000 years later no really new works exist in Gondor, the same 3 cities exist (1 is now an evil tower filled with Nazgul, and one is in ruins) and there are said to be some other towns and perhaps cities along the coast, but its clear that Minas Tirith is the most important. There are also 'the Havens of Pelargir' at the Mouths of Anduin, but we never get any information about what sort of a place it is, aside from it being a roadstead where Gondor's naval forces were based. Presumably these havens already existed as this is where Elendil first made landfall.

Even the Gates of Anduin, with Amon Hen and its partner on the east bank and the great guardian statues, are all stated by Aragorn to be 'mighty works of old' and he clearly indicates they are depictions of Elendil and Isildur. Perhaps they were built later, but it isn't likely it was MUCH later.

So basically, AFAICT NOTHING was built in Gondor after the first couple of generations, the whole kingdom simply remained sort of frozen in amber with only some gradual decay. The appendices talk about a whole variety of wars, plagues, etc. which happened at various times, but in no case is there really any indication of any growth, substantial change, etc.

Arnor is at least a BIT different, but not much. It exists for a good long while, well over 1000 years, and then eventually devolves into a number of petty states. Eventually they are all swallowed up by 'Angmar' and apparently virtually all life in the north is extinguished, as, outside of Bree and the Shire, there is NO population significant enough to produce any sort of political unit or state of any kind at all. It is stated clearly that both Bree and the Shire remember the Kings and 'await their return'. There's some statements about the existence of 'Dunlendings' further south, but its unclear if they have anything but some tribal organization.

No, the Third Age of ME is pretty much marked by NOTHING happening. The elves have pretty much blown off ME, except Cirdain, Galadriel, and Elrond, and a few of their immediate dependents. The dwarves build a few new mines in the Blue Mtns and at Erebor, but nothing else happens with them either for 3000 years. 'Lesser men' seem fairly busy, but they seem to mostly stay clear of the west, or live only in 'fringe' areas like Dunland, the edges of Mirkwood, or in the far north. Elrond stays holed up in Rivendell the whole time, Cirdain in the havens, and Galadriel in Loth Lorien. The ents keep to Fangorn, etc.

Edit: As for wikis... There's LOTS of material that was later generated by ICE for MERP etc. None of it is canonical. It is largely logical extrapolations of what was presented in LotR and related material, but TBH what most impressed me about it was how profound the difference was between Tolkien's ageless kingdoms and the RP-able mundane material of the ICE stuff. ME becomes a much less mythic and abstract place, because you really cannot RP in what Tolkien wrought, at least not much. Its just too barren of anything HAPPENING.
 
Last edited:

I find your contention that the secret door popped out of thin air and never existed prior to the player discovering it to be absurd. Finding that secret door caused it to always have existed in that scene, making it backstory.
Once again you seem unwilling to distinguish fantasy from reality.

In the fiction, of course the secret door was always there. But at the table, its existence was established as a result of the check. Therefore its existence is not part of the backstory, as Eero Tuovinen uses that term. You are free to use backstory to mean "elements of the fiction which predate the present in-fiction moment of play" if you want, but that's not how Eero is using it. He is using it to mean suuff that is literally pre-authored or is notinally pre-authored. (The latter is what is often called, on these boards, "winging it". Establishing the existence of a secret door as a result of a check is not "winging it".)

I also find your contention that action resolution is limited in effect to only the resolution of the action to also be absurd.
I don't really understand this, becuse "only the resolution of the action" is not a termn whose meaning you have explained.

But in any event, action resolution changes the fiction. It thereby contribues to future framing and fictional positioning. Which in turn fees into future action declarations and resolutions. I wouldn't have though that this is contentious.

In some systems, action resolution also generates discrete mechanical consequences whose connection to the fiction may be more or less tight, depending on system and congtext (eg in AD&D a successful attack roll results in the mechanical consequence of a depletion of opponent hit points - what this correlats to in the fiction is, by the rules, rather uncertain and relatively unimportant to future action resolution).
 

Remove ads

Top