What is wrong with 4E?

Zinegata

First Post
Zinegata said:
Could you get the whole WoTC quote? I've got a few snippets from Cook and others on how 3.5 Core sold less than 3.0. Entirely possible for 3.5 as a whole (including splatbooks) to sell more than 3.0.

And note that given we don't have any splatbooks for 4.0 yet, I'm keeping the analysis Core to Core only.

To clarify: I am referring to total sales here (because hong seems to be confused). 3.0 Core > 3.5 Core.

Not print run. Not initial print run. Not Core + Splatbooks. Just total Core Sales.

Which is again, merely to point out that while the news is definitely reason for cautious optimism - it's still no guarantee that 4E will be a runaway success (again, I suspect the Amazon'S aggressive discounting may have skewed their forecasts a little and caused an early reprint).
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
"Real multiclassing" is either Dabbling or a Mashup, in a broad stroke. Dabbling we have, and Mashups are supposed to be actual classes anyway. There might be a third option between the poles, but I'm not seeing a distinction.

Okey-dokey, here's your distinction.

A 3.X PC multiclasses into Cleric. By doing so, he gains access to all of the skills the Cleric has as class feats. He can cast any Clerical 0 or 1st level spell he selects. He has access to all of the weapons and armor proficiencies of the Cleric. He has access to the Cleric's HD. He can Turn Undead. All this as early as 2nd level. He will also qualify for all PrCls requiring the PC being a Cleric. By 4th level, this PC will have a suite of spells to use going up to 2nd level.

Consider the first multiclassing feat in the 4Ed PHB, Initiate of the Faith, which grants access to one specific Cleric skill (Religion) and the ability to use healing word once per day, and can use a holy symbol as an implement when using a cleric power or cleric paragon power. In addition, you gain access to any feat for which "Cleric" is a prereq and for the Power-Swap feats. However, you don't gain the Cleric's HP or weapons, his # of Healing Surges. You can't cast any spells. And most important, there are no feats in the 4Ed PHB that require "Cleric" as a prereq. The feats that are "clerical" in nature all require the "Channel Divinity" class feature that this feat does not grant. Barring some kind of Feat in an as-yet-unpublished supplement (IOW, cash up some more $$$), he will never be able to Turn Undead or any of the other uses for CD. The Power Swap feats aren't available until 4th level or higher. RAW, he cannot qualify for a Cleric paragon path (IotF qualifies you for "feats"- it doesn't say you are considered a cleric), meaning the only way you can get access to cleric or paragon powers to get any use out of your holy symbol is by burning yet another feat for a Power-Swap...which you won't get until at least 4th level.

The second (4th Ed) PC is clearly getting less bang for the buck, and is arguably gimped.

FURTHERMORE

4Ed style multiclassing is unidirectional, and only supports one kind of PC concept- the Dabbler.

3.X allowed for a variety of PC concepts. The Dabbler is supported, but so is the Renaissance Man, the Jack of All Trades (and Master of None), and the person who has experienced a profound change in his life.

The last one is the most telling- it is a powerful archetype in myth and fantasy lit, as well as reality. For example, it was not uncommon for warriors in feudal Japan to retire from the way of bushido and enter a monastery. In the West, entry into a monastery or cloister was another relatively common way for someone to change their lives, even after a lifetime of achievement.

A thug who "sees the light," like a killer who becomes a moral pillar and reforms himself is another relatively common trope.

And it is utterly unsupported by 4Ed's multiclassing rules. You choose your PC's first class, and he is primarily that forevermore.
 

Zinegata said:
Could you get the whole WoTC quote? I've got a few snippets from Cook and others on how 3.5 Core sold less than 3.0. Entirely possible for 3.5 as a whole (including splatbooks) to sell more than 3.0.

And note that given we don't have any splatbooks for 4.0 yet, I'm keeping the analysis Core to Core only.

SCOOP SCOOP SCOOP

http://mearls.livejournal.com/150306.html

and remember that 3.0 was 2000-2003 while 3.5 was 2003-2008, so 3 to 5 years AND difference in the market at the times.
 


hong

WotC's bitch
Dannyalcatraz said:
4Ed style multiclassing is unidirectional, and only supports one kind of PC concept- the Dabbler.

3.X allowed for a variety of PC concepts. The Dabbler is supported, but so is the Renaissance Man, the Jack of All Trades (and Master of None), and the person who has experienced a profound change in his life.

These are all dabblers, they just don't know it. Some of them are also gimped.
 

Zinegata

First Post
Intense_Interest said:
SCOOP SCOOP SCOOP

http://mearls.livejournal.com/150306.html

and remember that 3.0 was 2000-2003 while 3.5 was 2003-2008, so 3 to 5 years AND difference in the market at the times.

Actually, I did just see that. The problem is Mearls only said "print run", so I'm not entirely sure if he's referring to initial print run (where 4.0 > 3.5 is verifiably true, and 3.5 > 3.0 seems logically true), or the total print run. No mention if it's all books, or just core.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
These are all dabblers, they just don't know it. Some of them are also gimped.

I would argue that a powerful Warlord or Daimyo who retires and spends the next 40 years of his life as a Monk is no mere dabbler.

And, as I pointed out, that kind of character development is precluded by 4Ed.
 

Zinegata

First Post
hong said:
Which, of course, is where the parenthetical

(and 3.5 only, not 3.5 and 3.0)​

comes in.

All I was saying is that 4E = 150% x 3.5. It's not 4E = 150% x (3.0 + 3.5)

It's a simple statement of fact.

Because if the latter is true, forget cautious optimism and start celebrating.
 



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