D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

[Asisreo]

People seem to forget that out of the vicious onslaught of wish, antimagic field, wall of forces and simulcra, the wizard can only do these things roughly once. A martial can probably shrug off a meteor swarm with a good chance they dodge completely depending on the martial. Banishment is a temporary fix and Plane Shift depends on whether the spellcaster can both hit their AC and make them fail a Charisma check, which can also be hard depending on the martial.

Druids are actually quite weak if a martial knows what they're doing. A CR 6 creature is an easy encounter so they won't be in any real threat of significant damage over time, even a flyby beast must either be prepared for a ready melee attack. Even if the martial is a pure strength build like the Paladin, they can still ready a throw attack, which is guaranteed to be within the range of the enemy's reach if we're talking CR 6 beasts.

How to beat a druid as a martial:

(1)calmly wear their beastform down
(2)Wait for when they're weak/about to revert
(3)Unleash your strongest attacks all at once to do permanent damage
(4)repeat.

A martial can outpace a druid just from the sheer fact that they can take the Druid's attacks in stride while dishing out damage that'll bring the Druid down steadily.

 

[Iry]

I may very well be remembering wrong but I can't place that rule anywhere?

Nevermind. I am wrong and Crawford had said you can react before your first turn (as long as you are not surprised).

 

[Asisreo]

20th level Monks are cool, but I would still (I'm sorry) have to go with Wizard.

Invulnerability and Magic Missiles (for lack of even trying to think of anything better) would give a Wizard 100 rounds of no damage and over 400 hp of force damage the monk can't avoid. And the monk isn't going to kill the Wizard unless it hits for a Quivering Palm and the Wizard fails the save and drops to 0 HP, but Contingency can take care of that rare event probably... It is certainly a possibility, but far from a landslide.

While we're here, what are the chances the wizard goes first in initiative? The monk is going to have maxed dex so it's in their favor.

But anyways, invulnerability is the wrong choice. The wizard's immune to damage, he's not immune to conditions. The monk can still stunning strike him, and failing the save breaks concentration. Meaning that the invulnerability won't last for more than a round at best.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I may very well be remembering wrong but I can't place that rule anywhere?

Actually, I thought the no reaction thing was only when you are surprised? I could be mistaken. Since surprise likely wouldn't be a factor in these competitions, I think you could use your reaction prior to your first turn...

if you can regularly prep simulacrum then the sorcerer can keep it with wish as well... this he will have that 9th level slot.

how was that not obvious?

That is pretty much what I said. I was pointing out before the the spell is not a Sorcerer spell. If your sorcerer has Wish known (why wouldn't you, right?) than that would simply have to constitute the 9th level slot.

 

[DND_Reborn]

People seem to forget that out of the vicious onslaught of wish, antimagic field, wall of forces and simulcra, the wizard can only do these things roughly once. A martial can probably shrug off a meteor swarm with a good chance they dodge completely depending on the martial. Banishment is a temporary fix and Plane Shift depends on whether the spellcaster can both hit their AC and make them fail a Charisma check, which can also be hard depending on the martial.

Druids are actually quite weak if a martial knows what they're doing. A CR 6 creature is an easy encounter so they won't be in any real threat of significant damage over time, even a flyby beast must either be prepared for a ready melee attack. Even if the martial is a pure strength build like the Paladin, they can still ready a throw attack, which is guaranteed to be within the range of the enemy's reach if we're talking CR 6 beasts.

How to beat a druid as a martial:

(1)calmly wear their beastform down
(2)Wait for when they're weak/about to revert
(3)Unleash your strongest attacks all at once to do permanent damage
(4)repeat.

A martial can outpace a druid just from the sheer fact that they can take the Druid's attacks in stride while dishing out damage that'll bring the Druid down steadily.

Interesting. But short of metagaming, how do you know when they're about to revert??
And they can use spells slots (Moon Druid anyway) to heal up their Wild Shapes as a bonus action.

I'm not saying a Druid would win against a Martial class, but it would be fun to see.

 

[FrogReaver]

Actually, I thought the no reaction thing was only when you are surprised? I could be mistaken. Since surprise likely wouldn't be a factor in these competitions, I think you could use your reaction prior to your first turn...


That is pretty much what I said. I was pointing out before the the spell is not a Sorcerer spell. If your sorcerer has Wish known (why wouldn't you, right?) than that would simply have to constitute the 9th level slot.

If the simulacrum can be precast by the wizard without wish then It definitely can be precast by the sorcerer with wish. In both cases their spell slots recover before the duel. So the sorcerer will have a 9th level slot in the duel. Should be obvious but apparently not.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

20th level Monks are cool, but I would still (I'm sorry) have to go with Wizard.

Invulnerability and Magic Missiles (for lack of even trying to think of anything better) would give a Wizard 100 rounds of no damage and over 400 hp of force damage the monk can't avoid. And the monk isn't going to kill the Wizard unless it hits for a Quivering Palm and the Wizard fails the save and drops to 0 HP, but Contingency can take care of that rare event probably... It is certainly a possibility, but far from a landslide.

Again, this is all assuming that the Wizard gets to cast spells or prep.

Assume 20th level monk.
Wins initiative (not assured, but 20 dex tends to help). Maybe he has "alert" too.

At 20th level, assuming no magic items (naked combat!) we have a monk that does:
d10+5 per attack.
You get the following damage (we will assume open hand, since I have an OGL handy):

d10+5 (attack), d10+5 (extra attack), d10+5x2 (flurry).

Plus:
Either instant death (failed constitution) OR 10-100 (quivering palm).

Plus:
three stunning strikes (three con saves or be stunned)


Now, if the Monk gets initiative and hits each time (not unreasonable), then:
22+20+ 44, + death OR 55 more points of damage (99), + three con saves or stunned.

That's .... going to be rough on the Wizard.

Again, if the Wizard has time to prep, it's not an issue. But if the Monk gets to blast the Wizard right out, that's going to be a serious issue.

 

[FrogReaver]

Again, this is all assuming that the Wizard gets to cast spells or prep.

Assume 20th level monk.
Wins initiative (not assured, but 20 dex tends to help). Maybe he has "alert" too.

At 20th level, assuming no magic items (naked combat!) we have a monk that does:
d10+5 per attack.
You get the following damage (we will assume open hand, since I have an OGL handy):

d10+5 (attack), d10+5 (extra attack), d10+5x2 (flurry).

Plus:
Either instant death (failed constitution) OR 10-100 (quivering palm).

Plus:
three stunning strikes (three con saves or be stunned)


Now, if the Monk gets initiative and hits each time (not unreasonable), then:
22+20+ 44, + death OR 55 more points of damage (99), + three con saves or stunned.

That's .... going to be rough on the Wizard.

Again, if the Wizard has time to prep, it's not an issue. But if the Monk gets to blast the Wizard right out, that's going to be a serious issue.

problem is divination wizard Virtually never loses initiative.

 

[DND_Reborn]

If the simulacrum can be precast by the wizard without wish then It definitely can be precast by the sorcerer with wish. In both cases their spell slots recover before the duel. So the sorcerer will have a 9th level slot in the duel. Should be obvious but apparently not.

Again, my point is the same. If a Wizard gets a simulacrum for the competition, he should not get his 7th level slot. Likewise, if a sorcerer wants one, he would forfeit his 9th level slot. I would not allow them to have those slots back, especially when you consider the benefit a simulacrum can bring.

 

[Asisreo]

Interesting. But short of metagaming, how do you know when they're about to revert??
And they can use spells slots (Moon Druid anyway) to heal up their Wild Shapes as a bonus action.

I'm not saying a Druid would win against a Martial class, but it would be fun to see.

Healing their wildshape is such a bad option, I'd probably not even worry if they did. The beast probably has bad AC anyways and the Druid should focus on healing his actual AC.

The DM usually says when something is bloodied and gives hints about how close they are to down. A martial should be able to see the difference between a 1hp triceratops and a 50hp triceratops. Admittedly, a 1-10hp triceratops may look indistinguishable but a martial can probably be okay with 9 less hp being there. In fact, fighters in particular benefit from all the attacks they can make, since they can see when they need to turn up the power (via action surge).

Short of metagaming, how would a wizard know when it's appropriate to PWK?