D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[HammerMan]

I've never said or implied that you have to be first or you're last. Now you're inventing fiction and trying to attribute it to me. Stop that.
Each edition stands alone and is measured by different criteria. This is another bastardization of my position.

your position is that one of the best athletics in the world one of the even fewer in there country who made it to the Olympics and came in last some how failed because they lost 1 race/lift/jump/dance/ice scate... the entire road is nothing but successes. There is no way shape or form I (someone who could not get in top 500 in any sport/compation) can call the last place in the olympics a failur...

 

[jmartkdr2]

Again, fireball has nothing to do with it. It is not objectively the best spell in almost all combat situations. Using action surge to attack more is. That may be because of the whole fighter package, or the nature of D&D combat, but it is what it is. As long as the ability to attack more is an option for fighters, that's all they will use 99% of the time, which makes any other use meaningless, and Action Surge effective but boring.

Again, that's because fighters don't have more options, not because Action Surge limits them.

 

[Maxperson]

your position is that one of the best athletics in the world one of the even fewer in there country who made it to the Olympics and came in last some how failed because they lost 1 race/lift/jump/dance/ice scate... the entire road is nothing but successes. There is no way shape or form I (someone who could not get in top 500 in any sport/compation) can call the last place in the olympics a failur...

The goal of being in the Olympics is not to participate. There are no participation trophies. The goal of being in the Olympics is to win a medal, preferably the gold. If you fail to achieve the goal, you are a failure at what you tried to do. It doesn't make you bad. You can still be fantastic in the lower arenas. You are not an Olympic success. That is reserved for medalists.

 

[nevin]

being bummed is one thing... kicking yourself cause .0003 seconds faster would make you gold in stead of silver is normal, wanting to get .0004 seconds faster is great... still not a failure. even if you are 1 second slower and in last place, it's good to say you want to be 1 second faster, but again being last in the olympics is STILL A MASSIVE SUCCESSS..

That's a matter of personal perspective.
To you it's a massive success. To some its not the top so it's a failure. You can proclaim your view is correct but it's correct from your perspective. Many other's will disagree. People generally judge failure by their peers not by where they came in relation to the masses. Few are happy with 2nd place even at the olympics

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again, that's because fighters don't have more options, not because Action Surge limits them.

I agree with you. That doesn't make Action Surge not boring, however.

 

[HammerMan]

The goal of being in the Olympics is not to participate. There are no participation trophies. The goal of being in the Olympics is to win a medal, preferably the gold. If you fail to achieve the goal, you are a failure at what you tried to do. It doesn't make you bad. You can still be fantastic in the lower arenas. You are not an Olympic success. That is reserved for medalists.

I reject your entire life view... nobody (and defiantly not me) ask for a participation trophies. How ever qualifying for being one of the best in the world is not failing.

That's a matter of personal perspective.
To you it's a massive success. To some its not the top so it's a failure. You can proclaim your view is correct but it's correct from your perspective. Many other's will disagree. People generally judge failure by their peers not by where they came in relation to the masses. Few are happy with 2nd place even at the olympics

I am perfectly fine if someone wants to say "I think I failed because I am only 17th best out of the few billion on the planet" I will try to make you feel better by reminding you that 17 is still a success compared to several billion other people... I wont let someone in that lower billion CALL the 17th best in the world a failure without challenging them...

bringing this back WoTC isn't say "4e failed" people who have never gotten close to the sucess of 4e are saying "4e failed"

edit: 4e didn't last as long as other editions... true (with maybe an argument about 3e 3.5 meaning it was on par) 5e did better then 4e 100% true. 4e failed can only be said by someone who A) worked on it or B) did better then it... not someone who hated it and can't come close to matching it.

 

[Aldarc]

That's a matter of personal perspective.
To you it's a massive success. To some its not the top so it's a failure. You can proclaim your view is correct but it's correct from your perspective. Many other's will disagree. People generally judge failure by their peers not by where they came in relation to the masses. Few are happy with 2nd place even at the olympics

While I agree with your point to an extent, this overall argument over success in the Olympics feels less like a matter of personal perspective and more like a matter of trying to score points no matter the cost in a thinly veiled Edition War argument.

 

[Maxperson]

I reject your entire life view...

You have absolutely no clue what my entire life view is, man.

 

[HammerMan]

You have absolutely no clue what my entire life view is, man.

that you think any Olympic athlete can be called a failure.

 

[Maxperson]

that you think any Olympic athlete can be called a failure.

Doesn't even remotely begin to cover my entire life view.