What made D&D 'evil'?

[UD]

Before anyone objects to the next paragraph, please note that the statements I am about to make are true, within the context of the Bible, so keep in mind I am not stating these as absolute fact that one must beleive; only that they are true with regards to the source material.

I always point out one thing to many Christians when making this argument: Saint Thomas, believe it or not, in the Christian Faith was one of the founding supporters of proving something by empirical evidence. (Remember the whole "stick your hand in my wounds" thing?) Thomas said he wouldn't beleive the resurrection until he saw it himself. In the Bible, taking things on faith is spoken of predominantly by Paul, but God was always a believer in proof. The main reason for the biblical miracles was not for deeds, but rather as proof. Jesus' miracles - water to wine, resurrection of Lazarus, Walking on water, etc. etc.? Proof. Therefore, before you make a claim as a Christian, you need proof to back it up. If you have no proof, I believe that you dishonor Jesus' example, and that of Paul, and all Apostles who miracle-worked after him as proof of their veracity and power.

On theological grounds: not quite true.

(before I will continue, I would like to point out that these are my beleifs, and I do not wish to force them down anyones throats. you are al entitled to believe what you want. Just straightening a few things out).

All the disciples were berrated by Jesus for their lack of faith. Thomas especially becuase he wasnt with the others and refused to believe till he viewed Jesus himself.
John 20 vs 24-29:
24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.
25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Jesus would not be offended about those who start to believe without 100% proof, he blesses them. (See the above scripture)

Being a Christian is as you say a Faith, its about taking a step into uncertinty. But its not just about believeing that God exists, its about having a relationship with him.

The apostles and christians who followed all through to present times worked mircales not only as proof to others but because God told those who followed him to heal the sick, feed the hungry and help those who are oppressed. He gave other gifts or 'miricles' such as prophecy, speaking in tounges etc to help his church grow and to encourage and guide them.

Paul says in Romans (read Chapters 3 and 4) that we [humans] can only get into heaven by faith alone, not by doing good deeds. James writes in James 2vs14-26 that faith, true faith prvokes good deeds from you, because you want to love God and share this with others. Jesus came to serve others, and we should follow his example by doing this.

All I can say is that if you want proof that God is real, pray to him and approach with an open mind and ask him [God] to prove it, Im sure you will be surprised with the result.

[This is what I believe, and I do not wish to offend anyone.]

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Okay, and my quick and dirty summary of the matter.

Christan *fundamentalists* object to RPGS in general and D&D in particular for a lot of reasons--"magic" is one, the "demons and devils" are another. These sects also object to to school books in which there are questions that are not answered, pictures without a caption, not to mention evolutionary theory. Such persons call the gamne form "mind-controlling," and that is truly ironic. as they are the ones who seek to do just that.

Isn't it amazing that so many people are quite unable to discern the difference between fantasy and reality?!

Pat Pulling blamed D&D for her son's death, but in a newspaper interview she stated he had played the game for two years without her knowing it. So transferring guilt from her own parental failings to a game is understandable if not honorable.

The news mediam as typified by "60 Minutes" sensationalized the "D&D-related" deaths (suicides mainly) for commercial reasons, of course. Ed Bradly shook sensationalized newspaper clippings under my nose as if they were incontravertable proof. The interview was cut and pasted too, so as to get their desired slant on questions and answers. (Would I could re-do that session now...)

After that segment aired two of the mothers of sons who had committed suicide, supposedly because of D&D, took the time and trouble to write me personal letters in which they stated that was absolutely false. Copies of those missives were sent to the producers of "60 Minutes," and they refused to mention them, or revisit the topic. No ad sales that way, eh?

The media has lost iiinterest in D&D as it has no sensationalist value any longer. No deaths have been linked to it--legally or even logically. There have been no "Satanist cults" uncovered--although that is what Pulling went about, giving "expert" lectures to small-town police departments on such "dangers." The BADD organization she founded flopped, brought in no income.

Televangelists still try to make some donation hay by attacking RPGs and rock music. I saw a truly disgusting program in which the "pastor" warned about POKEMON, which led to MtG, which led right to the demonic D&D, and then hell! All avoidable, of course, if you donated some cash and got their tracts speaking out against those games. That wasn't the most frightening, though.

One absolutely bizarre preacher on a local station was showing videos of rock groups performing, using slow motion and stop action to "prove" how the singers were "casting sorcerous spells" and being "possed by demons" in the course of their performances. How did he know this? Because "someone who had been a Satanist, listened to this music, cast sorcerous spells, and had been possessed by demons himself" told him how to tell when such things happened. Very scientific that, and certainly proof as solid as that used in the past to discover witches and warlocks.

That fellow was surely a book-burner, and in my estimation he would have liked to have encouraged burning of other sorts too, were that allowable.

To sm up, the detractors of RPGs and D&D are sincere (and narrow-minded, bigoted) religionists of fundamentalist sort, cynical people seeking to profit from attacking the game form, and/or else folks quite unble to distinguish the difference between make-believe and reality.

Gary

 

[Wicht]

On theological grounds: not quite true...

29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Jesus would not be offended about those who start to believe without 100% proof, he blesses them. (See the above scripture)

Boy and i was gonna stay out of this discussion until this point

The absence of visual sight does not preclude the absence of evidence. Personally I have to agree that while we do not have visual proof today Jesus never asked anybody to make a blind leap of faith concerning himself and he is not necessarily blessing those who believe blindly.

As to the topic at hand, being deeply involved in both conservative Christianity and RPGs, I think that you will find that the majority of Christians have no problem with RPGs if you can adequately explain to them the difference between Real Life Paganism and fictional Paganism. Secondly, it helps to explain and illustrate that the study of a subject does not necessarily mean that one is a believer or follower of that subject. Indeed using the maxim that one must know one's enemy it would behoove certain people to better research the occult before lumping innocent games in with it while ignoring other things. For instance most people do not realize that knocking on wood is a form of primitive witchcraft, and it always annoys me when Christians do it. But in my conversations with people I use that in itself as an example of how it helps to know about something before you begin demonizing it.

 

[Dr Midnight]

Gary, a question I'm sure you've answered dozens of times: At the time of the big witchhunt, did sales improve, decline or remain the same?

I'm also wondering what led to the big downward slope in popularity that has brought us to modern day. D&D was incredibly popular in its heyday, and at this point the hobby is much more under the radar in pop culture consciousness. I doubt that the media frenzy could be that damaging...?

 

[Henry]

UD: Excellent points, all.

It is absolutely true that Faith is the primary requirement here. However, God realized that, without proof, there was no reason for the Gentile to believe in the first place. The First Century Mediterranean was an atmosphere rife with polytheistic belief systems. To these people, nothing made the Gospel any different from any other new religion. Jesus and the apostles offered such proof so as to back up their words - chapter and verse are rife with Miracles performed as proof of their power and authority. Without the power to back it up, the Gospel was so much as words to the other Mediterranean peoples.

The miracles were good deeds in and of themselves, and were commanded by God; BUT, the disciples were berated by Jesus because they SHOULD have believed. They were Jews; they knew the teachings and the prophecies as sure as anyone should have.

Case in point - though Thomas was reprimanded for this lack of faith, he was still shown what he needed to see, wasn't he? Jesus still provided what he needed to beleive that the prophecies had been fulfilled.

Christians are in the same place today. They know the teachings, they know the information, and should be able to place their faith in God because of it - Hence James' words. He was writing to an audience that knew and believed, but (a) had shaky faith in living an acceptable life, and (b) paid lip service. The audience you are speaking to is just as important as the way you portray the message. Therefore, if a message needs proof, you provide it. A modern Christian's offering of proof to a non-believer is in leading a life exemplary to God. (I will refrain from the Chapter and verse here - you know 'em also.)

The Story of the Exodus is a great example of this. God's primary concern was not converting Eqgyptians; they weren't chosen, he didn't concern himself at the time. His concern was channeling the plagues through Egypt to let Pharaoh know that he meant business.

I won't go into detail aby more here, because I've ventured into an off-topic, but by God's own tactics, faith in God's words still doesn't absolve a Christian from examining any subject in the context of their instructions before judging it as good or bad.

I'll stop here. If anyone wishes to talk about this further, there's always e-mail.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Gary, a question I'm sure you've answered dozens of times: At the time of the big witchhunt, did sales improve, decline or remain the same?

I'm also wondering what led to the big downward slope in popularity that has brought us to modern day. D&D was incredibly popular in its heyday, and at this point the hobby is much more under the radar in pop culture consciousness. I doubt that the media frenzy could be that damaging...?

Wow! did sales ever jump when the media attacked the D&D game. They were doing it to boost their ratings and sell ads. Sure worked for TSR too. We quadrupled sales instead of only doubling them as I had projected for the year. We couldn't print dfast enough, and that too increased demand.

The peak was likely 1983, and then the "fad" players began to drop off, as it was no longer the symbol of rebellious behavior to play D&D.

The real problems came when D&D began to turn out some questionable product in 1984-5, and TSR being on the verge of backruptcy then. When 2E came out about 50% of the D&D audience deserted TSR, and sales really went south then.

As of now, it seems that 3E sales are about at the 1982-3 level of AD&D, so things are going well for WotC.

Not on the pop culture radar screen? Hey, think of all the mentions of the D&D game that are heads on TV. The game is still solidly in pop culture

Ciao,
Gary

 

[Teflon Billy]

Wow! did sales ever jump when the media attacked the D&D game. They were doing it to boost their ratings and sell ads. Sure worked for TSR too. We quadrupled sales instead of only doubling them as I had projected for the year. We couldn't print dfast enough, and that too increased demand...

See, this was my story of getting into D&D.

I saw a thing on the late night news about a group of kids who had got themselves into trouble and were using the "D&D defense" in court.

The news showed some lead figs of a the Balor demon, and some orcs I think, the covers of the PH and DMG, and linked it to heavy metal music, suicide and general LEather jacketed Hooligan behaviour.

At that point I had to get into it

 

[Erik Mona]

Why do people consider D&D evil?

ARMIES OF THE ABYSS, baby. ARMIES OF THE ABYSS.

--Erik

 

[drothgery]

Why do people consider D&D evil?

ARMIES OF THE ABYSS, baby. ARMIES OF THE ABYSS.

--Erik

Anything in there that my paladin can kill? She's only 2nd level...

 

[Erik Mona]

Oh, certainly. Lots and lots of stuff that would make your paladin wet her pants, too.

And a bibliography that's good enough for burning in most of the close-minded fundie churches we've been discussing in this thread, too.

All at no extra cost to the consumer.

--Erik