What makes a Sandbox?

[Ariosto]

Mythmere's cat may be more agile than Schrodinger's, but I don't want to leap to a conclusion.

A gang of 165 orcs is not a wave but an aggregate of particles. At any point in time, an orc horde in fact occupies a particular point in space. It moves not only at a finite speed, but at one considerably less than the speed of light.

The orc horde does not exist independently of spacetime! Assuming it's not under a spell of invisibility or the like, then looking into the Cow Palace or Madison Square Gardens establishes a fact not only about the place and time but about Rob's Orc Mob: either R.O.M. is there, or it is not.

So, the more players know about where the orc horde was not, the more that further possibilities are constrained.

It is incumbent on the DM, I think, to have a "reasonably precise" view of R.O.M.'s whereabouts. Its appearance, however sudden, must be consistent with whatever phenomena previously informed players.

Why? Because the only way to "retcon" that information is likely to be to rewind and replay so much that the encounter warranting the exercise in the first place gets shunted off to an alternate timeline.

 

[Witty Comeback]

IMO Sandbox gaming is compatible with:

1. A randomly rolled encounter not keyed to location.

2. The occasional set piece encounter that just happens, at GM's decision, not a result of player choice.

These are two ways to give the impression of a living world without actually running the whole thing out behind the scenes.

I am inclined to agree with this. To continue the Road to Castle X example, I would give those two roads different probabilities of random encounters, and different random encounter tables (with correspondingly different threat levels).

I think it would be unfair (or un'sandbox'-ly) to have a prepped bandit encounter that went off no matter what on wither road.

If there was an 'orc horde' set encounter, it would not bother me if that went off on either road, no matter the choice. That feels somehow different to me.

 

[Ariosto]

What makes you think there were other, sinister motives for starting this thread?

Nothing -- until YOU suggested it just now! What makes you think I thought such a thing, a thing I have not written? You are not telepathic in this case.

What on earth gives you any indication on whether I'm a new schooler or old schooler, or whether I frankly give a damn?

Rather than get repetitive ...

HUH?????????

That voice in your head is not mine, so I can hardly be expected to explain what it says.

 

[Scribble]

Sooo...

What happens if they get to the road, and don't know a thing about it... They don't bother to look into whether or not one is dangerous, or one is less dangerous, or one is known for orcs while the other is known for unicorns with lollipops (the more dangerous one obviously...)

They choose a road at random. DM decides to place a bandit encounter there.

Sandbox or not?

Was "choice" really violated when a choice wasn't really made in the first place?

 

[Umbran]

Umbran, I think you are conflating the dichotomy between tailored and status quo encounters with linear versus sandbox.

No, I am not, at least insofar as I am presenting some of what I perceive to be historical background. There is also a vocal contingent of folks who would call you and me heretic for suggesting that tailoring for level-appropriateness is allowed in "real" sandbox play.

Mind you, I am not a purist. I am happy to talk separately about plot/adventure construction and encounter design.

I, however, would not use the term "linear" for plot construction, simply because it confuses the fact that the DM knows where they are going next with a more causal (or spacial) linearity - that the DM can force the players from point A to point B does not mean those two points are in any way related in the plot(s).

Yes, that means I have to be careful, because I use "tailored" as terms for both for plot and encounter design. I find that less confusing.

A sandbox game does not mean you wander into a CR 18 dragon and get creamed, it means you get to decide whether you want to slay the dragon or serve it or ignore it.

Being pedantic - no, the party does not get to decide if they serve the dragon. That's the dragon's choice. They can choose to grovel/offer their services. But having done so, whether they ultimately serve, or are served with BBQ sauce, is still entirely up to the dragon.

Or, if the players do decide for the dragon, we are now drifting into the realm of cooperative storytelling - which I'm pretty sure is not where we want to be...

 

[The Shaman]

Sooo...

What happens if they get to the road, and don't know a thing about it... They don't bother to look into whether or not one is dangerous, or one is less dangerous, or one is known for orcs while the other is known for unicorns with lollipops (the more dangerous one obviously...)

They choose a road at random. DM decides to . . .

. . . roll for a random encounter.

My exception to this might include an encounter based on unfinished business. Frex, if one of the characters defeats a foppish nobleman in a duel, the fop might hire some bravos to ambush the adventurers after they leave town. Depending on the circumstances, this might be a pursuit, which is really just a continuation of the original encounter, or it might be substituted for a similar random encounter (eye-eee, randomly generated bandits become the bravos instead).

 

[Umbran]

They choose a road at random. DM decides to place a bandit encounter there.

Sandbox or not?

As I understand it, in purest sandbox form, what was down each road was decided before the choice was offered to the players. This can include some chance of random encounters.

 

[Mythmere1]

Mythmere's cat may be more agile than Schrodinger's, but I don't want to leap to a conclusion.

A gang of 165 orcs is not a wave but an aggregate of particles. At any point in time, an orc horde in fact occupies a particular point in space. It moves not only at a finite speed, but at one considerably less than the speed of light.

The orc horde does not exist independently of spacetime! Assuming it's not under a spell of invisibility or the like, then looking into the Cow Palace or Madison Square Gardens establishes a fact not only about the place and time but about Rob's Orc Mob: either R.O.M. is there, or it is not.

So, the more players know about where the orc horde was not, the more that further possibilities are constrained.

It is incumbent on the DM, I think, to have a "reasonably precise" view of R.O.M.'s whereabouts. Its appearance, however sudden, must be consistent with whatever phenomena previously informed players.

Let's assume there are two areas where "orc horde" appears on the encounter chart. In one area, highly patrolled, the chance is very small to encounter the moving orc horde - in the other, mountainous region, an orc horde is a high probability.

Player choice affects the probability of the encounters, based on what road they take. Now, as it happens, I have an index card I jotted down the night before the game. "Gronk's Horde." From my perspective, I don't care whether the players roll "orc horde" in the patrolled area or the wild area. Wherever they happen to roll it, I use that index card. This is different from forcing the players to encounter Gronk's Horde no matter what they do. It's simply pre-prep for the game to create an orc horde, held in abeyance until it surfaces in accordance with the world's "rules" (ie, the random encounter tables). Once they encounter it, though, Gronk's Horde might become a feature of the landscape in the area where it showed up.

I guess the summary of that is - I think it's still a sandbox if the ref is holding some material that's not placed until it's used. Perhaps it makes it an "impure" sandbox, but I think it's still within the sandbox definition. If not, no big deal anyway. I've gamed that way since 1979, and it hasn't killed me yet. It has, of course, killed some PCs, but that's the breaks.

 

[The Shaman]

A sandbox game does not mean you wander into a CR 18 dragon and get creamed . . .

Actually, that can be exactly what happens in a status quo setting.

 

[Chainsaw]

As I understand it, in purest sandbox form, what was down each road was decided before the choice was offered to the players. This can include some chance of random encounters.

I suppose it depends on whether we're talking about just having different probabilities of a random encounter of random orcs for each road or whether we're talking about meeting a specific, named orc. If it's a specific orc, then I think that probably needs to be assigned ahead of time. No?

Edit: I think I misread the original post.. I didn't see that you'd included the bit about random encounters.