D&D 5E (2014) What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Dannyalcatraz]

We are trying to sanitise our games so that we can sanitise ourselves.

We are trying to avoid using RW stereotypes and derogatory language in describing fantasy races so that nobody coming to the hobby feels insulted while trying to play a game.

if you think of this as “sanitizing” as opposed to “human decency “, well...

 

[Guest 6801328]

I mean, it's just as possible that it has the opposite effect and subconsciously breaks down those sorts of beliefs. Wouldn't that be a good reason to keep it? A game helping break down such damaging real world beliefs?

If the history of the game were that every time an adventure was based on this premise it turned out to be the expansionist human settlers who were actually the bad guys, and the orcs turned out to be articulate poet-philosophers and artists, you might have a point.

 

[Sadras]

Except that's presuming them to be bigots to begin with

I was just about to post this. This appears to be like an attack on one rather than one's argument.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It might be easier to see with the Drow. I wouldn't want to be the one who has to explain to a black player wanting to try D&D that the elves with black skin are the evil ones. (I literally can't believe that this is still a thing.)

I was that player at one time.

Dragon Magazine published an article about making Drow into a playable race. Ultimately, I made 3 different ones- all predating Drizz’t by years, FWIW- and it was an interesting feeling how the in-character issues sometimes echoed my actual RW experiences.

In some ways, it probably improved my overall RP skills. It definitely whetted my appetite for choosing nonstandard character options, especially for races/species.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Granted, playing D&D probably doesn't turn anyone into a racist either.

I don't either. But what I do find plausible is that when somebody gets immersed in this portrayal of orcs, it leaves them just that much more susceptible to real-world arguments that....god I REALLY want to bring in a famous and recent example from the real world, but I would have to go to the principal's office to have a "talk" with Mr. Morrus if I did.

There's a recent article in the NYT about a reformed white supremacist, that talks about how she got sucked into that world:
Opinion | White Supremacy Was Her World. And Then She Left.

Reading about how she fell for the fair-sounding arguments, from people who seemed "intelligent", on the web sites she first visited, my own reaction (YMMV) is that any unconscious priming to believe in the innate inferiority of some races is only going to leave people more susceptible to the seduction.

 

[FrogReaver]

I was just about to post this. This appears to be like an attack on one rather than one's argument.

There’s not a vast difference in arguing someone’s position is bigoted and arguing that they themselves are a bigot. IMO

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh

 

[Maxperson]

I really can't see how it would lead to that. The game should somehow subvert the racist narrative for that, but it doesn't. Granted, playing D&D probably doesn't turn anyone into a racist either.

But I think it is more of an issue it not being terribly nice if in a supposedly fun past time activity players of certain background are confronted with racist language and imagery.

And if someone in my game was offended by something, I'd remove it from my game. I want the players in my game to have fun. People don't have to use anything they are offended by.

It might be easier to see with the Drow. I wouldn't want to be the one who has to explain to a black player wanting to try D&D that the elves with black skin are the evil ones. (I literally can't believe that this is still a thing.)

Those goes back to day and night, though. Day brought the sun, warmth, crop growth, greater vision to spot dangers, etc. Night brought cold, dangerous predators, hid dangers easily seen in the light of day, etc. It's not hard to see how white(day) was perceived as good by ancient cultures and black(night) was perceived as evil.

 

[Maxperson]

If the history of the game were that every time an adventure was based on this premise it turned out to be the expansionist human settlers who were actually the bad guys, and the orcs turned out to be articulate poet-philosophers and artists, you might have a point.

No. That's not true. Remember, I was talking about the game breaking down those behaviors in the real world as a possibility, which is just as possible as your point.

Or put the way you just put it, if in the history of the game we saw people become more and more racist in the real world after encountering orcs, you might have a point.

 

[Charlaquin]

Kind true, though I think there is certain 'uncanny valley of problematic' here. The most problematic stuff tends to be things that are very much like humans but not quite. Once we get to truly bizarre stuff like Beholders the associations really are not there.

Agreed. Helping beholders’ Case here is the fact that the characteristics that mark them as villainous and evil are much further removed from the rhetoric of real-world oppression. Calling Beholders irredeemably evil doesn’t implicitly validate the language of oppressors. Now, one could argue that an alternative solution to the problem with evil humanoids is to make them less human-like, change the characteristics that mark them as evil so they lean more towards the Beholder depiction. Fungal orcs is a thing that has come up a few times in this discussion. And I’ll concede that something along those lines might work. But past a certain point, you will run up against the problem that was the original topic of this thread - what makes an orc an orc? How far can you remove orcs from the racist tropes they reflect before they can no longer reasonably be described as orcs?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And Starship Troopers was actually putting a spotlight on an blatantly Evil Fascist human regime engaged in genocide against a peaceful alien culture who just wanted to be left alone.

I think you need to read that book/ watch that movie again if you missed that message. In it, we're the bad guys.

I’d say it was more shades of grey than that, but there’s a reason why the officers’ uniforms echoed those of the Nazis. As Paul Verhooven freely admits, this was intentional.

''Starship Troopers'' relys on Nazi imagery

Director Paul Verhooven copies German propaganda films in a twisted reference to the Third Reich

ew.com