D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Your words here have been said as nauseum in those threads as well. They didn’t end the debate then and they aren’t going to here. Without rehashing it here, There’s a fundamental disagreement about what you assert above.

It’s the internet. That’s expected.

But If I change one mind, or get someone to out their own bigotry, I’m happy.

 

[Maxperson]

By your standard, no mechanics are dissociated. All game mechanics are approximations of something, they just have different degrees of abstraction.

And that’s why “dissociated mechanics” is a useless term that should stay in 2009 where it belongs.

That's not true. If I take magic and associate with int, it's not dissociated as there is an in game link between magic and intelligence. If I take magic and let you just use whatever stat you feel like, it's dissociated. You can use int for one spell, dex for the next and charisma for the third. You the player are making that choice dissociated from the game world.

the term is not useless. It's just often misused.

 

[FrogReaver]

Maybe some PoC will be more generous than I, and will be right there with you, encouraging you along with kind words and juice boxes, as you take baby steps toward understanding systemic racism and its roots.

You ever been to eastern Kentucky? You ever read about eastern Kentucky? I'm going to hold it up as the example of what extreme poverty does to any place and people. Eastern Kentucky levels of poverty didn't happen because of systemic racism. Those people are mostly white and yet they are going to experience extremely disparate results when compared to the rest of the country.

Why does this matter? Because the condition of poverty and it's transmission from generation to generation is the cause of the disparate results. I'm not sure it actually matters what caused the increased poverty for any group. Breaking that cyclic chain of poverty is going to take the same measures.

1. Remove the initial cause - which for black people we presume was individual racism which caused the cycle of poverty has the greatest correlation to all other aspects of life. Except, constantly talking about race and racism and being victims of it and etc has a good chance of causing others to become more individually racist which will only perpetuate the cycle further or potentially lead to bloodshed if it does not. On some level the rhetoric being used is causing the very problem you seek to cure!

2. After the initial cause is handled then the way to end that kind of poverty is to provide economic opportunities.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

You've explained the problem very well, multiple times. Those who aren't getting it aren't going to suddenly understand . . . . because they don't want to. This argument has been made clear multiple times in multiple threads over the past month, and the same posters still don't seem to understand . . . . it's not because the threads have all gotten super long, it's willful ignorance based in a fear and unwillingness to do the hard work of change.

Willful disagreement is a better fit. I can see a cogent argument that opposes my view; I just don’t think it holds water.

in short, I do not believe pretending to slay orcs has any real world effects on others or on my own valuing of others.

some people hold the belief that it does. I don’t and I am basing it on what we know about behavior and games and my own lived experience.

Just because I don’t let someone else’s gut instinct guide me does not mean I am not listening. It means I listened and interpreted the data differently.

If different interpretation = willful ignorance I can play that game with people who disagree with me too. Everyone who thinks orcs are encouraging racist ideas are “willfully ignorant.”

wow! That’s fun!

 

[FrogReaver]

It’s the internet. That’s expected.

But If I change one mind, or get someone to out their own bigotry, I’m happy.

Except that's presuming them to be bigots to begin with

 

[Maxperson]

Ok! I'll explain it (yet) again!

1. They don't represent real world people. Let's get that out of the way.
2. In the game, they play the role of the "bad guys" to make it clear that part of the point of the game is to kill them and take their stuff.
3. In order to portray bad guys, it's useful to lean on tropes that are widely understood. E.g., relentlessly hungry undead, evil supernatural beings locked in an eternal battle against forces of good, alien geniuses that want to eat our brains, etc.
4. One such portrayal is "stupid, ugly, stooped-posture, violent, irrational, marauding, uncivilized, rapists." For many of us, that immediately triggers a ready-made impression of "evil people that need to be killed."
5. Alas! That trope is so effective that for centuries...millennia...it has been used to justify truly horrid behavior.
6. The thing is, it's not true. It's just not true that some groups of humans are more prone to these behaviors than others.
7. Unfortunately, these lies are not just a thing of the past. Not only are there millions of people still suffering the effects of the behaviors once justified because of these lies, but one reason it is so hard to stamp out is that many people still have, perhaps only subconsciously, a lingering belief that it is true. And some people (e.g. overt white supremacists) even still traffic in those tropes.
8. So not only is it simply hurtful to use this propaganda as a trope in a game, it's possible that it has a subconscious effect of reinforcing a belief that it's kinda sorta maybe true in the real world as well.
9. And isn't just the possibility that this is true enough reason to make a lore change to a game of make-believe, without acting like it's some huge imposition?

It's the jump from 4 to 5 and 6 that is a lot of the issue here. The existence of 5 and 6 doesn't mean that 4 has anything to do with them or is even a bad thing in a pretend game. As for numbers 7-9, I think it's a bit ridiculous to change a game based on some remote possibility. I mean, it's just as possible that it has the opposite effect and subconsciously breaks down those sorts of beliefs. Wouldn't that be a good reason to keep it? A game helping break down such damaging real world beliefs?

 

[DND_Reborn]

I would argue that most races in D&D are problematic to some degree (some way more than others) and each one needs to be re-examined eventually, even the sexy ones with pointy ears.

Nope. You aren't touching those sexy ears!

 

[Wishbone]

It's the jump from 4 to 5 and 6 that is a lot of the issue here. The existence of 5 and 6 doesn't mean that 4 has anything to do with them or is even a bad thing in a pretend game. As for numbers 7-9, I think it's a bit ridiculous to change a game based on some remote possibility. I mean, it's just as possible that it has the opposite effect and subconsciously breaks down those sorts of beliefs. Wouldn't that be a good reason to keep it? A game helping break down such damaging real world beliefs?

Playing as orcs might help that.

One way I could see doing that is having a premise of playing as a group of FR orcs attempting to fully turn away from worshipping or being affected by Gruumsh and his pantheon to a better path (and not even necessarily a non-aggressive or non-antagonistic path). Now, that something like that is not made more prominent is something that I think has and will continue to change.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It's the jump from 4 to 5 and 6 that is a lot of the issue here. The existence of 5 and 6 doesn't mean that 4 has anything to do with them or is even a bad thing in a pretend game. As for numbers 7-9, I think it's a bit ridiculous to change a game based on some remote possibility. I mean, it's just as possible that it has the opposite effect and subconsciously breaks down those sorts of beliefs. Wouldn't that be a good reason to keep it? A game helping break down such damaging real world beliefs?

I really can't see how it would lead to that. The game should somehow subvert the racist narrative for that, but it doesn't. Granted, playing D&D probably doesn't turn anyone into a racist either.

But I think it is more of an issue it not being terribly nice if in a supposedly fun past time activity players of certain background are confronted with racist language and imagery.

It might be easier to see with the Drow. I wouldn't want to be the one who has to explain to a black player wanting to try D&D that the elves with black skin are the evil ones. (I literally can't believe that this is still a thing.)

 

[Charlaquin]

So if I get it right, the offensive description is that:

The rhetoric used to described orcs as villains is similar (or the same) as the rhetoric used to legitimize prejudice made by a group (usually in position of power) toward another group (usually in minority) in order to make it morally acceptable for the first group.

It’s a complex issue, of course, but this is a very good synthesis of a significant part of the issue.