What makes Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter so good?

[Rossbert]

TL; DR summary (or what I'm gathering)

Cleave is good on high AC low HP targets
Sharpshooter is good while flying and outdoors in general where you can dictate range of engagement (and your party is cool with waiting at your max range)
-5/+10 is good when you have lots of attacks and are either willing to absorb the increase miss rate or you (and maybe party composition) build around finding every accuracy buff you can to mitigate the penalty and/or know the target has low AC

So it seems part of why I've never seen much of an issue (if there is one) is that it takes mid to high levels to really outpace other options (even dual weapon can theoretically add more damage (let's say an extra 11 a turn) depending on the number of attacks, with no penalty to hit) and most of my play either doesn't get that high or doesn't specifically lay down enough support to make it amazing.

I think it is enough of an issue at this point and toworry about it before someone I play with feels it is ruining things is borrowing trouble. Besides, there is a chance it may never hit the home game table at all and my AL characters are 3-4 levels away from the next ASI anyway.

 

[Coroc]

Be it Advantage or bless, it just shifts the probability to hit, but it also does this for attacks without the feat.

And that pick your favourite source of Advantage be it barbarian or Monk or who sounds like wish for your favourite song to me. 1 source of disadvantage and all is cancelled out even if all three are in effect before.

You hit more often without GWM / SS on than with, and if you picked the main Attribute increase instead you hit even more often. You save on the Dragons breath and only take half damage because your dex is 1 Point higher. You got ss instead? Bad luck you are dead. You cannot easily describe loads of possible complex Scenarios with some simple math.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'll clue you in to a start: create a Battlemaster with GWM (or better SS/CE) using Precision manuever; and getting Advantage from your favorite source (could be somebody casting Faerie Fire, could be a barbarian attacking recklessly, or a monk stunning the target just to mention three).

But that's all I'm gonna do.

Why? Because you're not new around here - you know I have been active in GWM threads since the dawn of time (or at least the release of 5E).

And I'm not going to repost the math only for you to ignore it, thus wasting my time. The above start is what you're getting from me.

I´ll give you the monk one. He is stunning anyway. How is the barbarian recklessly attacking helping the battlemaster? I guess multiclassing. Precision manever is a wash. You gain an average of +6.5 to hit at latest level. You could use that to negate a miss anyway or use trip maneuver for example when you hadn´t missed due to -5 already. And then you are attacking with advantage when using -5/+10 is a net gain.
The other one casting fairy fire falls flat because he could have casted fireball instead. Or if you are a powergamer, bless so you can combine it with advantage.

And you are not new to these threads either, and I tried googling for a build you gave and google told me you were also evasive last time only telling from your powergamer build instead of showing it.

 

[FrogReaver]

I´ll give you the monk one. He is stunning anyway. How is the barbarian recklessly attacking helping the battlemaster? I guess multiclassing. Precision manever is a wash. You gain an average of +6.5 to hit at latest level. You could use that to negate a miss anyway or use trip maneuver for example when you hadn´t missed due to -5 already. And then you are attacking with advantage when using -5/+10 is a net gain.
The other one casting fairy fire falls flat because he could have casted fireball instead. Or if you are a powergamer, bless so you can combine it with advantage.

And you are not new to these threads either, and I tried googling for a build you gave and google told me you were also evasive last time only telling from your powergamer build instead of showing it.

Ive posted the builds about 100x by now in multiple threads for years. I'll tell you what. Why don't you create a single classed barbarian or fighter without feats and I will create one with feats. No buffs. No magic weapons. You can even choose the character level we are looking at. I will be happy to show you how much more damage these feats add.

 

[5ekyu]

I´ll give you the monk one. He is stunning anyway. How is the barbarian recklessly attacking helping the battlemaster? I guess multiclassing. Precision manever is a wash. You gain an average of +6.5 to hit at latest level. You could use that to negate a miss anyway or use trip maneuver for example when you hadn´t missed due to -5 already. And then you are attacking with advantage when using -5/+10 is a net gain.
The other one casting fairy fire falls flat because he could have casted fireball instead. Or if you are a powergamer, bless so you can combine it with advantage.

And you are not new to these threads either, and I tried googling for a build you gave and google told me you were also evasive last time only telling from your powergamer build instead of showing it.

Experts claims should be taken at face value without proof, even if they are unwilling to provide data to support specific claims like double...

right?

thats the whole basis of the I-intific method, isn't it?

Seriously though, when something as simple as fog cloud shuts down advantages... but we cant talk about that cuz its not in every monster... the difference between theory and actual play grows.

In the right circumstances, under the right assumptions, against the right foes with the right limitations.... these feats are quite impressive.

Elsewhere, as even some of the proponents says, you would be wise to not use them and shoot normally.

So the question becomes how often in any given game are all those ducks lining up to make these feats shine vs how many times its better to not use them at all?

pretty much the same as with every other feat choice or character build option.

how many attacks and shining moments do mobile or charger or both together get you over time in actual play?

how many times does mage slayer really turn the tide of battle in actual play?

those wont lend themselves to white room excel tabulation tho so... not as many expert opinions.

To me, over time, it seems like doing more of the same is good - adding another plus or doing another die or whatever - but as far as actual tactical play works out it is the cases where you can do something new or take something big from rare to common (like say imposing disad on saves vs anything - but yes - concentration checks are big) that gets you big swings when it matters.

"I did +50 when my downed disadvantaged foe is hit by all five of my attacks in a round" is sure a woo hoo moment... but against such a foe how often would they have been up if you hand't but the rest of the turn played out anyway?

How many PCs were just un-paralyzed by that disadvantaged concentration check?

 

[CapnZapp]

So the question becomes how often in any given game are all those ducks lining up to make these feats shine vs how many times its better to not use them at all?

pretty much the same as with every other feat choice or character build option.

Great. So now you're relativizing to the point where every option is about the same: "it can be good and it can be less good".

Seriously.

Well, okay - it's up to the OP I guess.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ive posted the builds about 100x by now in multiple threads for years. I'll tell you what. Why don't you create a single classed barbarian or fighter without feats and I will create one with feats. No buffs. No magic weapons. You can even choose the character level we are looking at. I will be happy to show you how much more damage these feats add.

No, it is the other way round. And noone stated that it has to be without multiclassing or feats or the like. Please stay out of the conversation if you are unwilling to read every post. I never even said that the feat is not increasing damage by a good amount. I am saying that it is not as OP as some people claim because of denying reality of many games (I don´t speak about yours)

But, I am now willing to make a character fo you. half orc barbarian level 3. Berserker style. One encounter. Str 16, Con 16, Dex 14, Wis 12, In 8, cha 8 Longbow, Great axe, Scale armor.

 

[CapnZapp]

I will be happy to show you how much more damage these feats add.

Don't bother. Let's just add Ungeheuer to the small list of people that for some unfathomable reason cannot enjoy the game anymore if any of the complaints about imbalance are true.

That last argument "Google told me" is a hoot. I suspect you'd be more successful convincing a flatearther the world is round...

Anyway - this thread is about the OP asking why these feats are too good. I believe we have answered the question comprehensively. I do not think the OP needs Ungeheuer to believe it.

 

[MrHotter]

As a poster who does not post very often, has there been any well-received suggestions for updating the -5/+10 feats to help balance them out? Has WotC responded to any suggestions or concerns about the feats?

I don't think the feats should be removed, but I've thought of house ruling them to -5/+5, but ended up house ruling that an auto miss is on 1-5 when using the -5/+10. That way there are fewer cases where the power attack is the best choice for every attack.


It's not that my table is the kind where the players are trying to min/max, but I would like to keep them from feeling they must have the 'one true build' for their character.

 

[TwoSix]

As a poster who does not post very often, has there been any well-received suggestions for updating the -5/+10 feats to help balance them out? Has WotC responded to any suggestions or concerns about the feats?

I don't think the feats should be removed, but I've thought of house ruling them to -5/+5, but ended up house ruling that an auto miss is on 1-5 when using the -5/+10. That way there are fewer cases where the power attack is the best choice for every attack.


It's not that my table is the kind where the players are trying to min/max, but I would like to keep them from feeling they must have the 'one true build' for their character.

Not by WotC, no. Anything in the core rules is locked in at this point, and recent tweets/sage advice have gone in the direction of literal reading of the rules, and away from any interpretations of intent. (See: recent ruling on Shield Master/bonus actions.)

There's a general consensus (among optimizers, not the community at large) that those feats are too strong, but nothing close to a consensus as to how to correct them. The broadly supported options I've seen are removing the -5/+10 mechanic and replacing with a +1 to Str or Dex, or simply removing the feats entirely. I've seen changing the -5/+10 to something better also debated, but no real agreement on the best place to put the numbers.